Planescape, 4e, and the problem of worlds without history

[TwinBahamut]

I got a question for people who like the Great Wheel and for people who like World Axis: it's just me of you guys also think this new reason for the Blood War is kinda silly?

I will agree with you there. It seems forced. If they had to put the Blood War in there, they could have at least made it around the general difference between Demons who want to destroy all of creation and Devils who want to bend all of creation to their own ends.

The bigger issue is that the changes to Angels and Archons in the new cosmology makes their exclusion from the Blood war even more strange than it was before. Ultimately, the real Blood War of the World Axis cosmology is the endless battle between the beings of the Astral Sea who are led by the Gods and the beings of the Elemental Chaos who are led by the Primordials, and the old Demon/Devil Blood War feels rather cheesy and petty in comparison (especially since they are already on opposite sides of the broader conflict).

 

[Sammael]

I don't own the new MotP, but did they make an effort to tie the battle between gods and primordials with the war between the Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos? Or did they turn that into an all-primordial conflict?

 

[FourthBear]

I got a question for people who like the Great Wheel and for people who like World Axis: it's just me of you guys also think this new reason for the Blood War is kinda silly?

It's a bit basic, but I don't think that makes it silly. As I wrote earlier, I greatly prefer it to every previous explanation used for the Blood War. The majority I've been exposed to are pretty much non-explanations (and proud of it). I utterly dislike the primary Planescape boxed set explanation, which makes the devils and demons into manipulated chumps. At least the current explanation gives both sets of creatures:

1) Clearly defined objectives that are utterly opposed to the other.
2) A objective that is so clearly difficult that it appears reasonable that it hasn't been achieved after countless ages.
3) A goal that will result in forays of each group into the other's territory, which will result in mutual enmity.
4) An objective that has clear benefit for the various leaders of the groups, but a benefit which could lead to infighting.
5) It is something that a party of heroic PCs will almost certainly oppose either achieving.
6) Gives both sets of fiends both active and defensive goals.
7) Is intimately tied into the 4e World Axis cosmology's ancient history.
8) Doesn't have either group of fiends acting as tools of a third party (although depending on the sentience of the seed of evil, this could change).

I mean, fighting over a cosmic seed of evil is fairly simple. But, then, so is fighting over land, food or power of any sort.

 

[glass]

EDIT: I don't think there was anything wrong with my original post, but in the light of the mod warning I think I'll just say; WD, I didn't accuse you of lying, and leave it at that.


glass.

 

[SKyOdin]

I don't own the new MotP, but did they make an effort to tie the battle between gods and primordials with the war between the Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos? Or did they turn that into an all-primordial conflict?

The who?

Goes to show how little I know about Planescape. I don't even recognize who those characters are.

In response to the question, there is no mention of any Wind Dukes or of a Queen of Chaos in the 4E Manual of the Planes. For that matter, I don't remember any mention of them in the 3E Manual of the Planes either. I can only assume they are relatively minor Great Wheel characters.

 

[Sammael]

The Queen of Chaos and Wind Dukes of Aaqa are not Planescape characters. They date way back to OD&D. However, their conflict was interplanar in nature - hence my question.

The two were generally detailed in conjunction with the multi-edition-spanning Rod of Seven Parts campaign. In 3.x, the war served as a historical backdrop for one Dungeon magazine's Age of Worms adventure path.

Rod of Seven Parts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[glass]

In response to the question, there is no mention of any Wind Dukes or of a Queen of Chaos in the 4E Manual of the Planes. For that matter, I don't remember any mention of them in the 3E Manual of the Planes either. I can only assume they are relatively minor Great Wheel characters.

The Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos were originally from the backstory of the Rod of Seven Parts. I don't know if they were mentioned in PS, they probably were, but it wouldn't have been as major figures as they haven't been around for millennia.

In 3.5, they were featured in Hordes of the Abyss, and the story was also touched on in The Whispering Cairn, Paizo's first Age of Worms adventure*.

EDIT: Or, what Sammael said.

glass.

(* and probably later ones too, but my group didn't get that far, sadly).

 

[Ariquelle]

I agree with UnderThumb in that I like 2e and do not 4e.
I prefer the Great Wheel set-up because I like how the power of belief could quite literally shape reality.

 

[Piratecat]

I agree with UnderThumb in that I like 2e and do not 4e.
I prefer the Great Wheel set-up because I like how the power of belief could quite literally shape reality.

If you're going to bring this thread back from the dead for your first post (and welcome!), I'm going to make you work for it.

I'm pretty sure that the Great Wheel is mutually exclusive from the power of belief to shape reality. I'm using the latter with the 4e cosmology, and having no trouble at all. Can you explain where you're seeing problems?

 

[TwinBahamut]

Hey, I remember this thread! I forgot I made so many posts in it...

I agree with UnderThumb in that I like 2e and do not 4e.
I prefer the Great Wheel set-up because I like how the power of belief could quite literally shape reality.

You know, the entire "power of belief" thing is one of those D&D ideas that I never really liked. It just makes me cringe, and I always have ignored it whenever I start building cosmologies. There are simply far too many things that you can't do within such a system.

Of course, I doubt that I could persuade any fan of that particular concept to change their mind.