<< PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?

[Arnwyn]

There were a number of products in the past that were declared non-canon afterwards, especially some novels.

Who declared this? When was the declaration made? In what format and where can we find this declaration?

 

[reiella]

Who declared this? When was the declaration made? In what format and where can we find this declaration?

Hmm, the ones that come to mind are a handful of incidents where later published modules just state something that is contradictory to the canon.

Although, FR Canon may be the best place to look for actual canon 'changes'. Of course, FR canon is also a poorer choice(as it is includes inherintly self-contradictary sources. Poor phrasing on behalf of the FR product manager in reference to what was canon caused that (anything with the Forgotten Realms logo is canon).

 

[the Jester]

That is not correct.

There were a number of products in the past that were declared non-canon afterwards, especially some novels.

Kilamar

I've never heard that before.

Before I say that I stand corrected , could you tell me where you heard this? I've never seen this referenced before anywhere, but I don't have a lot of the setting-specific stuff from the 2ed days (which, I would imagine, is where it would be declared).

 

[Oaken25]

I've never heard that before.

Before I say that I stand corrected , could you tell me where you heard this? I've never seen this referenced before anywhere, but I don't have a lot of the setting-specific stuff from the 2ed days (which, I would imagine, is where it would be declared).

The ones I can think of off hand are the Double Diamond Novels from TSR. TSR and WOTC decided they are not canon, except as a book that Volo wrote as a chapbook. They have the FR logo and they were put out by TSR but they are not canon, except as a in game book.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lists

 

[the Jester]

The ones I can think of off hand are the Double Diamond Novels from TSR. TSR and WOTC decided they are not canon, except as a book that Volo wrote as a chapbook. They have the FR logo and they were put out by TSR but they are not canon, except as a in game book.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lists

Thanks for the reference.

I'd say there's a world of difference between a novel being declared non-canon and a module being considered non-canon without being declared non-canon from the guys that make it.

For one thing, the adventure happens to/involves characters, whereas the novels might be read by players. A world of difference, imho.

Have the events of any modules been declared non-canon?

 

[Pants]

"Should mean"? Yes, that is correct deductive reasoning. However, does it break the actual rule? No, it doesnt.

You say I'm argueing symantics. What I say is that you are using loose symantics to prove a specific point. Becoming a god inside Sigil is not a loophole to the Lady's "dictate" that gods cannot enter Sigil because a god did not enter Sigil. This isn't symantics; It's fact. The two are completely different things and one does not invalidate the other, which a loophole would do to some extent (even if just temporarily).

A loophole doesn't break a rule, it just bypasses it. Perhaps I should have used the word 'bypassed' in my original post, but I had no idea that this would erupt in a discussion about the usage of that particular word. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess...

Actually, I jumped in because of the whining against canon and to explain LoP's purpose as a source of campaign stability. Probably stuck around too long after that...

Actually, I think most of us on both sides have.

Sounds about right.

More for me!

I'd gladly give it up

Well, now that's just screwed up. This discussion is over.

Damn straight

 

[Oaken25]

Thanks for the reference.

I'd say there's a world of difference between a novel being declared non-canon and a module being considered non-canon without being declared non-canon from the guys that make it.

For one thing, the adventure happens to/involves characters, whereas the novels might be read by players. A world of difference, imho.

Have the events of any modules been declared non-canon?

There is no difference though. They are all part of the setting and you asked for specifics. I supplied specifics. Especially in FR, since novels and sourcebooks have always been tied together and up to the mid 90's novels in FR were canon and were always considered to be.

I can't recall a module off hand that is, but many of the Planescape modules are probably not canon or only parts of them are now. Take Orcus for example, in 3e he is not a deity (except in FR) but in Dead Gods he returned as a deity.

However WOTC now says he isn't a deity but he still returned so only half that module is canon.

There are some FR modules and sourcebooks that are not canon any more, since Ravenloft and FR, according to the FRCS, have never been connected together.

 

[Pants]

I can't recall a module off hand that is, but many of the Planescape modules are probably not canon or only parts of them are now. Take Orcus for example, in 3e he is not a deity (except in FR) but in Dead Gods he returned as a deity.

A Guide to Hell isn't really canon either. No longer is the PS module that revealed the source of the Demon's ability to Teleport at will. There are no doubt, other modules that have been ignored. I just don't know of them.

However WOTC now says he isn't a deity but he still returned so only half that module is canon.

He's still considered a lesser deity in FR.

There are some FR modules and sourcebooks that are not canon any more, since Ravenloft and FR, according to the FRCS, have never been connected together.

Wacky stuff really...
Then again FR has been a breeding ground for canonical inconsistencies.

 

[Oaken25]

He's still considered a lesser deity in FR.

Yes I know that, which is why I said.

"I can't recall a module off hand that is, but many of the Planescape modules are probably not canon or only parts of them are now. Take Orcus for example, in 3e he is not a deity (except in FR) but in Dead Gods he returned as a deity."

Meaning in FR he is still a lesser deity.

 

[Shemeska]

The novel 'Lord of the Necropolis' for Ravenloft was declared noncanon, though I don't have a link for it to give you.

Die Vecna Die wasn't declared as such officially from on high by TSR/WotC because it wasn't in the PS setting and PS wasn't an active line at that point. It got more than anything else decanonized by being ignored and unused. And then of course Planewalker made parts of it not valid.

Planewalker also is going to be giving some reasons to reconcile 3e game mechanics and monster stats with the events of Hellbound where the Maeldur et Kavurik was dunked in the Styx thus depriving the fiends of their teleportation abilities. We've discussed this already and come up with a solution that keeps both the story from the box set and the 3e presence of fiends with teleportation valid and kosher with each other.

As far as Planescape material no longer being canon just because of the edition and rule changes, I don't see your point fully. That's the same as throwing away every single greyhawk and FR book and product as never having existed just because some things they contained aren't repeated verbatim in the 3e FR and Greyhawk material. I wouldn't blanket invalidate anything fluffy and storyrelated unless it was fully contradicted, and then I'd be a bit likely to mock the contradiction if it didn't pass muster. But that's just me being picky on the last part.