<< PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?

[Pants]

But it's not a loophole.

Yes it is. You're arguing semantics.

Gods cannot enter Sigil does not = Gods cannot be in Sigil.

Gods cannot enter Sigil, thus it should mean that Gods should not be in Sigil at all. Vecna exploited it and became a God inside Sigil. How is that hard to understand?

Not saying it did. I'm saying that making her defeatable does.

Not much I can say to this. You don't want to give her stats or make her defeatable, then why are you in a thread specifically created to get rid of the Lady? Seems pretty self-defeating...

"Planescape enough" shows my opinion. Hormel Chili is "chili enough", after all.

I don't like Chili. Shows my opinion.

 

[fnork de sporg]

I always had a personal theory for the origins of the Lady. IMC she was the on true Overgod of all creation. If you could somehow defeat her then you would become the supreme overgod. This cycle of overgods being born from the ashes of the previous overgod has continued for all time, for longer than time has existed.

In a previous incarnation the Ovegod was fickle and vain, eventually becoming monstrously cruel and decadent.Sigil was his crown and all of creation lived squished beneath his boots. This was a time before morality, when right and wrong were merely concepts that lived in the minds of foolish mortals. But these concepts proved great motivators as the overgod was layed low buyt a fiendishly clever mortal obsessed with the idea of ethics. This overgod recreated the universe several times, searching for a true paradise devoid of all evil, but could not succeed in his task. He himself was not pure, he could not resist the lure of his ultimate power to attempt to fix things. In his mad quest he had destroyed all he had ever cared about, his ever love and memory warped in to souless things devoid of choice. Those who were not robbed of their souls and true minds lived in torment, driven mad by a world that would properly define it self, or crushed beneath the full wight of his concentration. And every time he came up with a world that came near to his desires he could not resist the urge to meddle, and in the end he would always curropt or break it or destroy it.

Re realised that the only way the universe could ever know peace was if it lived without the interference of a mad overgod. But creation could exist without an overgod to stabilize it. And anyone with the wits and powers to usurp him would fall in to the same traps and cycles as he did. And then he came upon his brilliant idea. An overgod that did not want to be an overgod. For whom being an overgod is an unpleasant experience, for whom using the pwoer of an overgod would cause unnimaginable agony and pain. An overgod possesed of no great plans, maintaning a universal arrangment that they themselves have no personal attachment too.

And so he devided the world by according to the ideals and ideas of his ethics, and arranged things to cause the such a thing to come in to existence, and thus for him to leave existence. And she is the Lady of Pain. Though she has the powers of ultimate omnipotence she dares not use more than fraction of them. Her mazes and her portals, these are but functions of her seat of power Sigil. Adn the flaying, the supernatural murder, is more a matter of undoing the essential bits that bind their physical form in reality. Her actual omnipotence she never, ever uses. And that was the point.


But that's just me.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Gods cannot enter Sigil, thus it should mean that Gods should not be in Sigil at all. Vecna exploited it and became a God inside Sigil. How is that hard to understand?

"Should mean"? Yes, that is correct deductive reasoning. However, does it break the actual rule? No, it doesnt.

You say I'm argueing symantics. What I say is that you are using loose symantics to prove a specific point. Becoming a god inside Sigil is not a loophole to the Lady's "dictate" that gods cannot enter Sigil because a god did not enter Sigil. This isn't symantics; It's fact. The two are completely different things and one does not invalidate the other, which a loophole would do to some extent (even if just temporarily).

Not much I can say to this. You don't want to give her stats or make her defeatable, then why are you in a thread specifically created to get rid of the Lady? Seems pretty self-defeating...

Actually, I jumped in because of the whining against canon and to explain LoP's purpose as a source of campaign stability. Probably stuck around too long after that...

Actually, I think most of us on both sides have.

I don't like Chili. Shows my opinion.

More for me!

 

[herald]

"Should mean"? Yes, that is correct deductive reasoning. However, does it break the actual rule? No, it doesnt.

You say I'm argueing symantics. What I say is that you are using loose symantics to prove a specific point. Becoming a god inside Sigil is not a loophole to the Lady's "dictate" that gods cannot enter Sigil because a god did not enter Sigil. This isn't symantics; It's fact. The two are completely different things and one does not invalidate the other, which a loophole would do to some extent (even if just temporarily).

Actually, I jumped in because of the whining against canon and to explain LoP's purpose as a source of campaign stability. Probably stuck around too long after that...

Actually, I think most of us on both sides have.

More for me!

But when he says it was a loophole, he's not wrong because the text of the module states just that. Loopholes aren't just symantics. By design or mistake, they exist to be exploited by thouse who understand laws and rules. A loophole might start off as a symantics, but since other rules are built upon it, it has to be allowed less other rules be broken.

And since those rules are so very importaint in Sigil, it cannot be ignored.

Let me put it another way. The rule was designed to keep Gods out. It wasn't arbitrary. It was carefully designed to do just that. The ballance of the Universe depends on Sigil being God free. So when Vecna broke that rule, he was exploiting a loophole. He was a Demi-God, he did something that made himself not a god temporarily, and then as soon as he made it to Sigil, resumed being a god.

Loophole.

 

[jonesy]

2nd point: As far as Dragonlance and Planescape. Folks from Krynn are generally regarded as the stereotypical 'clueless' primes. However I personally don't care to use much DL stuff in Planescape because Weiss and Hickman never intended for Dragonlance to be set in the same multiverse as the other TSR settings, it get forced upon them and I have a wish to respect that if I can in some ways. Of course it's unavoidable sometimes to make reference to Krynn.

The other part of that problem is that most (read: all) of the references to Dragonlance that Planescape material has made have appeared in a form that has seemingly intended to upset Dragonlance players. At least that's how it looked to me.

 

[taotad]

The other part of that problem is that most (read: all) of the references to Dragonlance that Planescape material has made have appeared in a form that has seemingly intended to upset Dragonlance players. At least that's how it looked to me.

Pretty much all the reference to prime worlds in Planescape is intended to upset primes.

I imagined I would go tired too if I constantly confronted primes without knowledge of the big picture, thus the rather depreciatory term "Clueless".

 

[Mista Collins]

How do you defeat the Lady of Pain? As it has been said before... you can't (or at least that is what is believed). As a DM though I would say that in order to "destroy" the Lady of Pain, you have to convince everyone that she does not truly exist. Since many of the gods believe she exists, that would require a lot of [donkey] kissing to convince them. That would be a neat little story line to base a campaign around. Definetly sounds epic to me.

Another way to defeat the Lady of Pain... create a home-brew campaign without her in it .

 

[Arnwyn]

I don't like Chili. Shows my opinion.

Well, now that's just screwed up. This discussion is over.

 

[Kilamar]

If a module was published by tsr/wotc, it is canon.

That is not correct.

There were a number of products in the past that were declared non-canon afterwards, especially some novels.

Kilamar

 

[Henry]

Lady of Pain, I adore you
Died on the day I first saw you
My heart has been bleeding for you
What else could my skewered heart do?
Lady of Pain, I'm appealing
Free me from this maze that's concealing
The way back to Sigil this evening!
Lady of Pain, I love you

(This extremely bad pun brought to you by Eddie Fischer and Henry Link)

Short of anyone else coming up with anything better than the House with the artifact in it, I think we should declare the round over, with the Lady as the winner. But that's just my opinion.