[Planescape] What would you want to see in a Mega-Adventure / Campaign?

[Oryan77]

In Planescape, probably more than any other setting, it's the journey that matters much more than actually achieving something in the big picture of things.

The above quote is exactly what I was going to vote for (or explain, since it isn't an option in the poll). Planescape for me has always been about the plane-hopping to new and exotic destinations. There is a reason that Planescape PCs are referred to as "Planewalkers". I suppose that could still be referring to a single plane, but I interpret that as meaning that we're crossing many planes during our adventuring. If a PS mega adventure isn't covering a fairly good number of different planes, then I wouldn't be interested in it. The planes being used also need to differ a lot from each other.

As much as I like them, adventuring on Bytopia, Elysium, Arcadia, & Arborea (or Baator, the Abyss, & Gehenna) one after another would be rather bland. Sure they have their unique traits, but they still will come off as any other non-PS game once you've introduced the quirks of the plane and the players get used to it. The planes used in the adventure need to be much different from one another. Like Bytopia, Limbo, Carceri, Acheron, Astral, & Elemental Air. All completely different environments to keep the players in a state of wonder.

Next, and equally as important to me as the locations being used, is the overall story of the adventure. A mega adventure should involve a more unusual plotline than just rescuing a body or doing a mission for Joe Blow. It should focus more on some sort of planar-like aspect of the setting. Keeping a plane from sliding, dealing with law & order rather than just good & evil, something involving a god or proxie...maybe even dealing with petitioners on a grand scale. I still even like using the McGuffin in my PS games because it can involve that item being used for some planar purpose (or needing to be destroyed by a planar method).

I actually think your poll results are kind of pointless though.

First, "It needs to capture the elusive Planescape *feel*." has the most poll results. That question is obvious though isn't it? But everyone is going to have their own idea about what that "feel" is. I'm not sure how that poll result will help you write a better mega adventure. It's obvious that since so many more people voted for that over the other options, you'll want to cater your adventure with "the PS feel" in mind. But what "feel" is actually important to people so that it "feels" like PS rather than just some fantasy game taking place in some exotic lands? I suggest when you are done with this poll, you create another poll with lots of options to choose from in regards to what the "feel" is for a PS game. Then use those results to help you in your designing of the adventure. For example, some might think having faction stuff is very important to a PS game. Others might not give a darn about factions in a PS game. Some might think you need to use more obscure creatures like slaadi, loths, petitioners, or PS specific monsters. Others might think all the adventure needs is some demons, devils, celestials, and some gods....but that's not necessarily Planescape is it? Others like me, might think you need to actually plane-hop a lot. Some might be perfectly satisfied if they ran the entire adventure in the Abyss. So what do people think is the "feel" for Planescape?

My next gripe about the poll results stems from the, "It needs to be more of a sandbox than a railroad" results. Is this really the 2nd most important thing to people for a great PS mega adventure? First of all, I strongly believe that most people praise sandbox games and bash a railroad game mostly because they feel pressured to do so by the internet. So they want to fit in with popular belief even though that opinion holds little truth.

I've kind of gone off on a rant here and I don't want to derail this thread. So I'm going to elaborate on this sandbox gripe in a new thread.....here.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION] First off, I totally am with you on venturing to various diverse planes. One of my rules of thumb is for most advenures to feature sites on at least 2 planes (with reasons for it being those planes). For example, one adventure I'm working on involves seeking out a mimir trapped on Mechanus then the mimir's former owner/creator (a githzerai petitioner) on Limbo. The mimir has an unwilling role to play in upholding law and protecting the realm of Varuna, while the githzerai has created his own afterlife The Land of One Sky. It's and extremely cool adventure that really can only happen in Planescape!

As for polls, I take all polls with a grain of salt, including my own.

However, that doesn't make it pointless. Yes, I find well conceived posts (like yours) more helpful, but the poll is there to gather information quickly in an organized way from people who might not otherwise post.

To address your issues with some of the poll options...

Planescape feel: Yes, it's subjective, and your idea for a follow up poll is a good one. However, there's quite a few people I've spoken with who used Planescape as synonymous with Planar Adventure. In other words, they stripped out the Planescape feel, whatever that may be and used the setting as generic Planar Adventuring. So, what these limited polls are establishing is that on ENWorld and RPG.net (some of the biggest D&D forums out there) people who are interested in running Planescape *do* care about the unique Planescape feel, and do *not* want just generic Planar Adventuring.

Sandbox vs. Railroad: Whether or not "railroad" is a dirty word, my wording pretty clearly establishes that it is a spectrum which I'm asking about, not black or white classifications.

 

[Oryan77]

[MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION]To address your issues with some of the poll options...

Sorry, my reply wasn't in regards to your poll options. I don't have a problem with the poll itself. My reply was in regards to the results of those poll options.

Of course people are going to want a PS adventure to have a PS feel. So it is natural that that option would be high in the polls. My last reply though was a long-winded suggestion that you determine what a PS feel is to people. Like we both said, you don't want it to be a planar adventure, you want it to be a Planescape adventure. But what I was saying in particular is, a lot of people, including PS fans, might not get that distinction. So I was suggesting that for your benefit, run another poll later on to figure out what are the most important aspects of PS that makes it stand out as more than just a planar game. Cause even both of us, as experienced PS DMs, may overlook parts of the setting that make it a PS setting. And knowing those things might help you make the adventure have more of a PS feel to it.

For example, one common theme I see a lot even from PS fans is about the use of planar cant. I for one love it. But you may not. It may not even occur to you that while writing NPC dialogue in your adventure, not using the cant might cause a DM like myself to think, "Yeah, so I think I read one bit of an NPC monologue where he used the word "berk", and that's about it. The NPCs didn't really feel PS-like because of the lack of cant used when compared to the 2e setting material." That may be a bad example of what I'm trying to explain, but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

As far as the sandbox option, it's two things. One, I can't believe that so many people voted for it when I find that to be an extremely weak point to care about when it comes to a pre-written adventure. And two, I don't even see how that relates to writing an adventure to begin with. I guess I am saying that I have a problem with that being an option. But not as a bad thing. I'm just not sure how that relates to you writing an adventure. Are you asking if your adventure should just have main plot points like Dead Gods had, and then the DMs fill in all the in-between stuff and scenario details? Even if that is the case, I don't see why so many people would prefer that over other options. I have a feeling that the people voting for that option are not the people running pre-written adventures anyway. I personally run pre-written adventures so that I don't have to do as much prep-work and adventure creation. I like to add my own stuff here and there, but my biggest complaint about Dead Gods was how much work I had to add in on top of an already gigantic pre-written adventure.

 

[PBEM66]

Ideally, a Planescape grand adventure would include several things...
The inclusion of several (or more!) planes that the PCs interact with, adventure hooks that could be used by PCs that haven't experienced other planes yet, Some sandbox qualities to allow a DM to base a campaign there separate from the adventure, a logical and exciting adventure with a Planescape feel, solid editing, encounters appropriate to the setting and character levels suggested by the adventure, and excellent artwork.

Bonus items might include:
Pre-generated characters might be a nice touch, as well. Unique magic items, spells and encounters specific to the Planescape setting. And, having planar rules as an appendix to help the DM remember what effects the various planes have on the adventure.

 

[Quickleaf]

Of course people are going to want a PS adventure to have a PS feel. So it is natural that that option would be high in the polls. My last reply though was a long-winded suggestion that you determine what a PS feel is to people. Like we both said, you don't want it to be a planar adventure, you want it to be a Planescape adventure. But what I was saying in particular is, a lot of people, including PS fans, might not get that distinction. So I was suggesting that for your benefit, run another poll later on to figure out what are the most important aspects of PS that makes it stand out as more than just a planar game. Cause even both of us, as experienced PS DMs, may overlook parts of the setting that make it a PS setting. And knowing those things might help you make the adventure have more of a PS feel to it.

I agree that, while I think I have a solid grasp of how to evoke the Planescape feel in an adventure, there may be differing perspectives on what exactly that feel is. And running a follow up poll is a good idea.

OTOH, if your first sentence were so obvious, you'd expect something like 100% of voters to have selected "it needs to have the elusive Planescape feel." Instead, only 70% of voters selected than option so far. That seems to indicate there's a sizable minority of folks on ENWorld (where Planescape ranked as the #1 fan favorite setting in a poll of 500+ users last year!) who don't care about Planescape's feel and just want planar adventures instead.

Ideally, a Planescape grand adventure would include several things...
The inclusion of several (or more!) planes that the PCs interact with, adventure hooks that could be used by PCs that haven't experienced other planes yet, Some sandbox qualities to allow a DM to base a campaign there separate from the adventure, a logical and exciting adventure with a Planescape feel, solid editing, encounters appropriate to the setting and character levels suggested by the adventure, and excellent artwork.

Agreed! Though by "encounters appropriate to the character levels of the adventure", I assume you mean main quest-critical encounters that can clearly be resolved by combat only? For example, several Planescape adventures had PCs negotiating with much more powerful beings with combat as a non-option (or at least a really bad one). Also, sandbox-ish play generally encourages letting players get in over their heads if they so choose and multiple ways to solve a challenge...so while "level appropriate" still has meaning in a sandbox, it's a much broader looser meaning. Even. More so if I use 5e to write the adventure, what with its bounded accuracy.

Bonus items might include:
Pre-generated characters might be a nice touch, as well. Unique magic items, spells and encounters specific to the Planescape setting. And, having planar rules as an appendix to help the DM remember what effects the various planes have on the adventure.

The planar special conditions appendix is a neat idea...I'll see if it's feasible given page counts.

Also, for anyone interested, here's a rough table of contents and guesstimated page counts if the mega-adventure were one book...
[SBLOCK]
Planescape Mega-Adventure Book
1-4 Title, Credits/Legal/Thanks, Contents, Preface
5-9 Introduction*
     Synopsis by Tier, Planescape, Heroic Bonds, Rift Marks, Adapting the Campaign, (NPC Abbreviation), (Website)
10-20 Sigil, City of Doors*
     Overview, Lady's Ward, Lower Ward, Hive Ward, Clerk's Ward, Guildhall and Market Wards, (The Factions)
21-77 Chapter I: Mystery of the Mark (~56)*
     1-2. Mountain Specters
     2-3. Canary in the Cage
     4. Two Faced Sibyl
78-162 Chapter II: The Lady's Key (~84)*
     5-6. Saint of Keys
     6-7. Between a Cog and a Hard Place
     8-9. Secrets of the Fading Palace
     9-10. A Mirror Darkly
163-247 Chapter III: Blood of Aoskar (~84)*
     11-12. The Leafless Tree
     12-13. Shattered Portals
     14-15. Aoskar's Maze
     15-16. 
256-304 Chapter IV: A Conspiracy of Doors (~56)*
     17-18.
     18-19.
     20.
305-306 Appendix A: Portals & Pathways
307-310 Appendix B: Rift Marks
     The Alchemist, The Astral Guardian, The Conduit, The Dreamer, The Etherfarer, The Gatecrasher, The Plane Seer, The Portal Key
311-312 Appendix C: Spells
     Gate Ward, Warp Sense
313-316 Appendix D: Magic Items & Artifacts
     Mimir, Portal Trap, Sensory Stone, Hwyrr the Clarion Harp, Codex of the Infinite Planes
317 Appendix E: Glossary & Cant
318 Index of NPCs
319 Index of Planar Sites
320 Playtest Quotes & Website Link (Player's Primer, Pregen PCs, Handouts/Maps)
[/SBLOCK]

 

[TolumvireOfArendur]

I would say the most important thing about a Planescape campaign is the feel of the setting. Aspects like the quotes, the artwork, the bizarre humor, the unique slang, and the sweeping cosmic principles that render individuals small in a huge cosmos.

I don't think it needs to be in a boxed set; that was simply packaging rather then something actually important. A sandbox rather then railroad campaign depends on the particular DM's style and the player's style. As for the levels, that depends how long the players want the campaign to last. Planescape is about planar travel, so it would seem logical for the party to be dabbling in the planes.

A compelling villain is always a good idea, though pregenerated players are a bad idea. At least this has been my experience. As for a specific edtion, I doubt that matters. Digital support is an excellent idea, given the increasing shift to technology in the current day and age.

 

[Quickleaf]

For folks who did NOT select "elusive Planescape feel", am I right in assuming that you simply want a planar/plane-spanning adventure?

I would say the most important thing about a Planescape campaign is the feel of the setting. Aspects like the quotes, the artwork, the bizarre humor, the unique slang, and the sweeping cosmic principles that render individuals small in a huge cosmos.

Since we're on the topic, I'm going to be putting up a poll later this month asking folks "What is necessary to capture that elusive Planescape feel?"

The artwork, bizarre humor, slang, quotes, sweeping cosmic principles...these all seem like good poll options. Id be curious to hear what others, especially [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION], think should be in such a poll?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think a big chunk of the document aesthetics, while a little superficial, can be pretty important for "feel."

The vedigris-and-gold color scheme. Exocet font. The floating box quotes. The use of in-world banter to explain things to players. The painterly, sketchy, watercolor aesthetic of the art. Images of impossible things. If you have these visual elements, your document will likely be recognized as fitting into Planescape, regardless of the information actually therein.

But I'm not necessarily a great layout designer -- I kind of know what a good page looks like, but it's not really my strength. So I tend to focus on something I'm better at: game elements.

2e PS had a few major game elements unique to it.

First, factions -- the idea of subscribing to a philosophy that is also an organization and gaining the benefits and drawbacks from adhering to it is uniquely PS. Signing up to a philosophy is literal there and should influence the actions a PC takes on adventures (and what adventures they take). Faction powers give you new things to do in the name of your belief.

Another element was portals. PS was not about the big, epic journey with panning cameras, it was about already being where you needed to be (or at least cutting to the interesting conflict in getting there). Travel in PS is direct, accessible, and nearly instantaneous. Survival wasn't about how long you could endure, but a more binary "can you breathe earth?" kind of quality.

A third element, more in the DM's hands, was that the players shaped the cosmos with the power of their ideas. The important bit of this is not that they have the power to kill dragons (because things like gods and demon lords in PS are beyond a direct assault), but that they have the power to change minds and influence beliefs. That, and that the planes actually changed after the PC's were done with them. The setting does not remain the same, it gets shaped by the PC's as they progress through it.

These changed the play experience of PS to make it distinct from playing other settings. They gave you a heroic archetype linked to a philosophy, which gave you an instant antagonist group, focused on action over exploration, and directly empowered ideas to literally change the fabric of reality.

So I think if you are going for "iconic," you should include those things. Or at least, the principles behind those things. The adventure path changes the planes, the journey is not more interesting than the destination, and the characters are linked to organizations that fuel them with unique belief-ennabled abilities. Certainly a game about a long journey of an isolated group that recedes quietly into the sunset wouldn't be very good at capitalizing on the unique PS style, gameplay-wise, though you might stick it in enough visual iconography that it appeals to the PS fan regardless.

 

[Starfox]

Really, there is only one thing any AP needs; a compelling plot. The rest is craft, not art.

 

[Quickleaf]

So I think if you are going for "iconic," you should include those things. Or at least, the principles behind those things. The adventure path changes the planes, the journey is not more interesting than the destination, and the characters are linked to organizations that fuel them with unique belief-ennabled abilities. Certainly a game about a long journey of an isolated group that recedes quietly into the sunset wouldn't be very good at capitalizing on the unique PS style, gameplay-wise, though you might stick it in enough visual iconography that it appeals to the PS fan regardless.

Great points!

Factions: I'm contemplating handling factions as an aspect that becomes increasingly important during play as players become more familiar with the setting. Starting with a faction is purely optional; players who are more invested in the setting can begin as faction members and get a perk for that, but players less invested don't need to know anything about factions. Over the first 4-6 levels the PCs would be encountering lots of varied factions integrated into the story/situation, each with their own sympathetic aspects. Sort of how Planescape: Torment handled factions as an aspect of emergent gameplay.

Portals: I always thought other means of planar travel - Yggdrasil, River Styx, Infinite Staircase, etc - were a bit underutilized in Planescape adventures. While I agree that portals are the dominant form of travel, creating their own unique adventure hooks about acquiring gate keys and the impact of instant travel between two sites on different planes, I also would like to include other methods of travel. I am looking at plot-devices to encourage this, for example the Rift causing portals going haywire or an ancient evil lurking within portals themselves.

Shape the Planes: This is one I really want to place an emphasis on, and especially to overtly tie it to what the PCs believe. Several Planescape adventures allowed PCs to do this, but what belief was being challenged (the why) was usually less than clear. To make this meaningful, I think it means there need to be recurring adventure elements (sites, NPCs, factions) that change with PC intervention over time, and PCs see and feel the impact of their choices.