[Planescape] What would you want to see in a Mega-Adventure / Campaign?

[Oryan77]

Really, there is only one thing any AP needs; a compelling plot. The rest is craft, not art.

I agree with this. Everything else aside, people are buying/playing an adventure for one thing over all else, the quality of the plotline and the adventure scenarios. If that is great, you are good to go no matter what faults you have with your other poll options. The other things can be improved by the DM. If the plot needs to be improved, it's almost a waste running it.

For example, I had decided to run Tales from the Infinite Staircase a year ago. I prepped and converted (to 3.5) almost the entire thing and then realized, the plot kind of sucks. So I have changed everything in it. I'm still using most of the adventure sites as a basis, but I've completely changed the plotline, major NPCs, and removed entire chapters. So as a tool for mining ideas, the adventure is nice. But as a stand alone adventure, it kind of blows.

I think a big chunk of the document aesthetics, while a little superficial, can be pretty important for "feel."

Yes, if you wanted to get that serious to having a PS feel, I agree with this. Planewalker.com did a pretty good job with this in their 3e conversion documents. They are still a little generic looking, but they do go in the right direction as far as PS aesthetics go.

Another element was portals. PS was not about the big, epic journey with panning cameras, it was about already being where you needed to be (or at least cutting to the interesting conflict in getting there). Travel in PS is direct, accessible, and nearly instantaneous. Survival wasn't about how long you could endure, but a more binary "can you breathe earth?" kind of quality.

This comment is exactly why I suggested making a 2nd poll about what the PS feel was to players. People are going to have their own opinions about what it is that makes a planar game a Planescape game.

See, I completely disagree with this line of thought. I was attracted to PS because it was all about the journey. The portals are there to help me as a DM cut out any nonsense that I don't feel like dealing with. But I still love the journey getting from point A to point B. The journey is what gives a PC the title "Planewalker".

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where Kamikaze Midget is coming from and I agree with it for those that prefer to cut to the chase. Nothing wrong with that at all. The versatility of PS is what I love about the setting.

I like to introduce as many locations and planes as I can get away with during each adventure. I try not to make it exhausting, but I like the thought of needing to overcome various territories in order to get where you want to go. Just taking a portal from Sigil to your destination is extremely boring to me. I almost always require some use of a planar pathway (Yggdrasil and the Infinite Staircase being my favorites). The journey is just as important since I get to introduce new strange and exotic locations, unique NPCs and creatures, and the PCs get to experience all the different planar traits as they travel.

For my games, the PCs usually won't find a direct portal. They may not even figure out the entire route to get where they need to go. So they might find out about a portal that will take them to a location where they might find out from there how to reach their final destination. For example, in our last trip from Sigil, they needed to get the Shurrock on Bytopia. They were told that the gatetown Tradegate could get them to Bytopia. So they had to figure out how to get to Tradegate. So they learned that they could use the Infinite Staircase to get to Tradegate, but then they had to figure out how to find the staircase. This was all an adventure in itself, and the staircase acted like overland travel with "random encounters" and they stumbled into the Planewalker's Guild. Once they finally reached Bytopia, they realized that they still had to reach the other layer, which again involved overland travel. This allowed me a chance to run encounters on Centerspire which I've always wanted to do. On their trip back, they did some airborne travel when they finally used a gnomish hot air balloon. I got to run some airborne encounters.

So for me, the PS feel is about the travel just as much as the destination locations.

A third element, more in the DM's hands, was that the players shaped the cosmos with the power of their ideas.

This is something that I don't think is that necessary for a good PS adventure, but it is one that if done well, would be a great benefit for the success of the adventure. I don't think most existing PS adventures did this a whole lot. Most of them were not much different from most other non PS adventures. An adventure doesn't necessarily need to have this in order to feel like a PS game. But like I said, it would be awesome if it involved the PCs drastically changing something, even if it was just as basic as a town sliding into another plane. I've always wanted to be better at thinking big like that in my own games.

I find it very hard to get PCs to actually change the planes based on their belief. It either takes some railroading and heavy handedness on the DMs part to basically make a change happen since the players aren't necessarily trying. Most players I've seen pretty much just run through the adventure and if they make it to the end and succeed, things change based on that outcome. The change happens more because they simply just finished the adventure and not so much because they made it their goal for that to happen. Changes based on belief seem to really only happen for players that love to take initiative and really absorb themselves into the campaign. Those kind of players have been rare in my circles. Fortunately, my current group seems to really get absorbed in the planar aspects of the setting. So I've been able to focus a lot more on things that I never did before (currently, law vs chaos rather than good vs evil). And they find this really interesting. My past groups wouldn't have given it a second thought.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Factions: I'm contemplating handling factions as an aspect that becomes increasingly important during play as players become more familiar with the setting. Starting with a faction is purely optional; players who are more invested in the setting can begin as faction members and get a perk for that, but players less invested don't need to know anything about factions. Over the first 4-6 levels the PCs would be encountering lots of varied factions integrated into the story/situation, each with their own sympathetic aspects. Sort of how Planescape: Torment handled factions as an aspect of emergent gameplay.

I would say the risk with this is that your early adventures don't capitalize on what the characters themselves believe in, and that the characters' beliefs don't become archetypal or central in your games, mechanically speaking, because other things matter to them more at first. Not saying that's good or bad, just A Thing That Might Happen.

PS:T let factions emerge from the gameplay and as such, they weren't considered a formative aspect of The Nameless One's character (compare the player's identity in, I dunno, the the Sensates, to the identity of Fall-from-Grace as a Sensate to get a sense of the gulf that exists there). What TNO believes about the multiverse now is up for debate, not something that makes him who he is. The mechanics reflect this, as he can't join just any faction, he needs to prove his worthiness during play via quests, and the benefits are not usually particularly unique. Faction allegiances also don't play a major role in the central story. Big hurdles, low incentive. The game also doesn't care if you finish all the quests and get all the benefits and then just abandon ship for the next faction, emphasizing how little TNO's own philosophical organization isn't exactly important to the story of the game. Torment finds its philosophical roots in other places (like the concept of a character who cannot die).

In an adventure path, while some curious PC's might join up with a faction introduced organically, those that don't will miss out on this element of gameplay, missing out on this unique element of PS. It's also possible that if the faction provides actual benefits (mechanically, or even in the story), that not joining it will be considered a sort of "punishment" unless you create some parallel structures. Which can be a HUGE headache.

It's important to emphasize that this is only a risk. PS:T certainly didn't need faction allegiances to play up themes of philosophy and Big Questions, but it had dying immortals and chaste succubi and living beings who were always on fire, and it's hard for a "generic" adventure to presume that the characters going on it are equally as interesting and weird and provocative. It's certainly not impossible to bring these things to bear on starting characters without factions, but it'll demand some effort from you as a writer if you don't use the tools the setting provides you as a default if you still want to highlight this element.

Portals: I always thought other means of planar travel - Yggdrasil, River Styx, Infinite Staircase, etc - were a bit underutilized in Planescape adventures. While I agree that portals are the dominant form of travel, creating their own unique adventure hooks about acquiring gate keys and the impact of instant travel between two sites on different planes, I also would like to include other methods of travel. I am looking at plot-devices to encourage this, for example the Rift causing portals going haywire or an ancient evil lurking within portals themselves.

Your risk here is making the adventure path, or at least that part of it, another "Trek From Point A to Point B and See the Sights" kind of adventure. This might diminish the aspect of PS that pushes things to the extreme and keeps the stakes high, making the threat something distant and brooding rather than immediate and confrontational. Those paths serve like other PS locations in that the reason you are on them in "normal play" is because you want to be on them, not because you're forced to go through them while getting to other locations.

I think more broadly, this decision might risk going "spellplague" on you. Which is to say that if you take something iconic and unique about a setting (like a benevolent goddess of magic that makes powerful magic possible) and try to make the setting interesting by wrecking that thing (like killing off that goddess and making powerful magic dangerous), it risks having a reaction where people go, "What's the point of going to this setting if I'm not going to get to do its iconic and unique thing?" So, "What's the point of going to Planescape if I'm not going to jump through portals to new planes all the time!" might be a concern.

Again, only a risk. An adroit writer can totally still pull this off, and could easily keep the feel of immediacy and conflict central on some sailing over the Oceanus (for instance). But, again, it is something you'll need to bring to bear yourself rather than relying on the mechanics that the setting gives you if you're going to shut down portals. You'll need to actively bring it in.

Shape the Planes: This is one I really want to place an emphasis on, and especially to overtly tie it to what the PCs believe. Several Planescape adventures allowed PCs to do this, but what belief was being challenged (the why) was usually less than clear. To make this meaningful, I think it means there need to be recurring adventure elements (sites, NPCs, factions) that change with PC intervention over time, and PCs see and feel the impact of their choices.

A lot of PS adventures were written in that 2e heyday of railroads-where-the-PCs-don't-matter, and they bear that mark strongly. I think recurring elements that change are a good way to telegraph this. Making the PC's more central in the planes is also a way to telegraph this -- they can't fight a god, but they can earn the loyalty of a god who then fights enemy gods for them.

And I know I probably sound a little negative here, but I'm not trying to present a critique, just trying to give you a heads up about some of the consequences that might shake out if you make certain decisions. They might be acceptable consequences, unimportant consequences, consequences that might never materialize, or consequences that you totally have a handle on addressing. You're the writer, that's for you to figure out. I'm just the peanut gallery!

It's also probably important to note that different DM's emphasize different elements of the planes. People have run journey-heavy stories about isolated parties who don't leave a mark in PS, I am sure. Probably even a few official adventures that run that way. While these adventures are possible, I don't think they highlight the unique feel of PS, the things that set it apart from other settings. If what you want is "iconically PS," that might not look like how some DMs (possibly including you!) have used the planes before. Again, stick that adventure between the PS design aesthetic and you probably have something that'll be called a good PS adventure despite, IMO, not really leveraging the setting at all.

 

[TolumvireOfArendur]

In an adventure path, while some curious PC's might join up with a faction introduced organically, those that don't will miss out on this element of gameplay, missing out on this unique element of PS. It's also possible that if the faction provides actual benefits (mechanically, or even in the story), that not joining it will be considered a sort of "punishment" unless you create some parallel structures. Which can be a HUGE headache.

The problem I find with factions is that unless they're really interested, players will never remember all factions or particularly care about them. Often, players will only remember their own factions, and I had one Paladin in my Planescape campaign who forget which faction he was in (the Harmonium), got confused, thought he was a Mercykiller, and went to their headquarters instead. That was unpleasant for everyone involved.

This isn't to say that the factions are a bad idea; rather, they are one of Planescape's unique facets, but DM's must gauge their players and be aware of what kind of style they prefer. In some cases, I find that some groups just aren't suited for Planescape (like mine).

 

[MoutonRustique]

The problem I find with factions is that unless they're really interested, players will never remember all factions or particularly care about them. Often, players will only remember their own factions, and I had one Paladin in my Planescape campaign who forget which faction he was in (the Harmonium), got confused, thought he was a Mercykiller, and went to their headquarters instead. That was unpleasant for everyone involved.

This isn't to say that the factions are a bad idea; rather, they are one of Planescape's unique facets, but DM's must gauge their players and be aware of what kind of style they prefer. In some cases, I find that some groups just aren't suited for Planescape (like mine).

I'd counter that this is more of a "deep setting" issue - whenever you have a setting with very deep development, some players will love it and almost "study" it... others, not so much.

If you really played up the faction wars of Waterdeep and the intrigue of the Lords - some players would remember the whole "who likes/hates who" chart and others would forget the name of their main questgiver...

 

[TolumvireOfArendur]

I'd counter that this is more of a "deep setting" issue - whenever you have a setting with very deep development, some players will love it and almost "study" it... others, not so much.

If you really played up the faction wars of Waterdeep and the intrigue of the Lords - some players would remember the whole "who likes/hates who" chart and others would forget the name of their main questgiver...

I totally agree with you; in my mind, the problem is that some players will take the time to memorize all the powers that be within a campaign, while others are simply not interested. Whenever complex politics or even just a large number of important NPC's come up in a campaign, anywhere from 1-3 people will do their best to remember, while others will become bored and restless, leading to potential problems in the future.

Of course, this is a systemic issue in D&D that is hardly confined to Planescape, and balancing different styles of play is a never-ending and often tiring issue for every DM. However, in Planescape, I find that the factions are such a key part of the the feel, scope, and plot of the setting, it's impossible to minimize their importance, and with a group in which half the party doesn't care about them, Planescape can become unwieldy and hard to DM.

This isn't to say that I dislike Planescape; to the contrary, it is one of my favorite settings, up there with Eberron and Grayhawk in the list of settings that I love to DM, but unlike Grayhawk and Eberron, one can't just find an hone in on an aspect of the setting that appeals to everyone. For this reason, I find Planescape to be harder to DM, and it lives and dies with how much energy the players put into playing it.

 

[Quickleaf]

Interesting thoughts! I'm taking notes

Doing some future poll planning, as per [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION]'s recommendation.

How do these options look to you?
Any that should be on the list but are missing?
Any that should be merged together to make the number of poll options less daunting?
Wording that should be changed to be less biased or more precise?

What makes up the elusive Planescape"feel" to you?

1. Abstract made manifest and other really bizarre stuff
2. Adventures spanning multiple contrasting planes
3. Aesthetics (graphic design, art, writing style, dark humor)
4. Cant (planar slang)
5. Compelling questions/revelations, eg. "what can change the nature of a man?"
6. 15 factions managing Sigil's civil government (pre-Faction War timeline)
7. Interaction emphasized as equal to or more important than combat
8. Killing fiends and stealing their stuff
9. Overland travel thru strange paths like the Infinite Staircase or River Styx
10. Philosophers with clubs playing critical roles in the adventures
11. Player decisions shaping the planes in a significant way (the power of belief)
12. Portals used to instantly get from adventure site A to site B
13. Sigil, City of Doors, as a key adventuring site
14. Strong adventure hooks, eg. WHY we're planting a rose in the Abyss
15. Subversive fantasy playing on expected villains and outcomes
16. Wondrous adventure sites
17. Other (see my post below)

 

[Starfox]

Having some kind of hand-out or a campaign log detailing major factions and NPCs can be a big help. Index card sized images with the option to add notes on the back is one solid idea. a campaign wiki is another. Both still require someplayer interest, or you'll have to do all the bookkeeping yourself.

In a published setting/adventure, a capsule description of factions/npcs, with a picture and commonly known information would be a godsend. Probably just a single page for a particular setting. A piture is gold in this; pictures are good memory hooks.

 

[TolumvireOfArendur]

Interesting thoughts! I'm taking notes

Doing some future poll planning, as per @Oryan77's recommendation.

How do these options look to you?
Any that should be on the list but are missing?
Any that should be merged together to make the number of poll options less daunting?
Wording that should be changed to be less biased or more precise?

What makes up the elusive Planescape"feel" to you?

1. Abstract made manifest and other really bizarre stuff
2. Adventures spanning multiple contrasting planes
3. Aesthetics (graphic design, art, writing style, dark humor)
4. Cant (planar slang)
5. Compelling questions/revelations, eg. "what can change the nature of a man?"
6. 15 factions managing Sigil's civil government (pre-Faction War timeline)
7. Interaction emphasized as equal to or more important than combat
8. Killing fiends and stealing their stuff
9. Overland travel thru strange paths like the Infinite Staircase or River Styx
10. Philosophers with clubs playing critical roles in the adventures
11. Player decisions shaping the planes in a significant way (the power of belief)
12. Portals used to instantly get from adventure site A to site B
13. Sigil, City of Doors, as a key adventuring site
14. Strong adventure hooks, eg. WHY we're planting a rose in the Abyss
15. Subversive fantasy playing on expected villains and outcomes
16. Wondrous adventure sites
17. Other (see my post below)

Those 16 points seem pretty good. I would add playing around with the difference between rumor and true knowledge, which is pretty pervasive in Planescape (if I recall my Cant, the terms are Chant and Dark respectively).

 

[Oryan77]

What makes up the elusive Planescape"feel" to you?

1. Abstract made manifest and other really bizarre stuff
2. Adventures spanning multiple contrasting planes
3. Aesthetics (graphic design, art, writing style, dark humor)
4. Cant (planar slang)
5. Compelling questions/revelations, eg. "what can change the nature of a man?"
6. 15 factions managing Sigil's civil government (pre-Faction War timeline)
7. Interaction emphasized as equal to or more important than combat
8. Killing fiends and stealing their stuff
9. Overland travel thru strange paths like the Infinite Staircase or River Styx
10. Philosophers with clubs playing critical roles in the adventures
11. Player decisions shaping the planes in a significant way (the power of belief)
12. Portals used to instantly get from adventure site A to site B
13. Sigil, City of Doors, as a key adventuring site
14. Strong adventure hooks, eg. WHY we're planting a rose in the Abyss
15. Subversive fantasy playing on expected villains and outcomes
16. Wondrous adventure sites
17. Other (see my post below)

All good points. My only problem is that I want to pick multiple options! Maybe it needs to ask which is the most important?

I wish there was a rating system for polls so we could rate the options from greatest to least important. That seems like it would be more helpful for you. I mean I guess we could manually type it out as a reply. But man, that seems like a lot of research work for you to go through.

 

[MoutonRustique]

This isn't to say that I dislike Planescape; to the contrary, it is one of my favorite settings, up there with Eberron and Grayhawk in the list of settings that I love to DM, but unlike Grayhawk and Eberron, one can't just find an hone in on an aspect of the setting that appeals to everyone. For this reason, I find Planescape to be harder to DM, and it lives and dies with how much energy the players put into playing it.

I agree - Plane Scape is one of those settings that can require a great deal of "player buy-in".

On the other hand, one of the worst things about Plane Scape is how awesome we feel it should be and that anything less is "bad" - I am very much guilty of this.

I've been trying (with moderate success) to change my outlook to "well, it's not what PS is supposed to be about, but we had a great game, and that's more than enough!" when the players don't invest as much effort as I'd like or "get" what the adventure was about or ...

There are few things worse than unmet expectations - but they're just that expectations. It is a hard thing to be truthful when saying that you'll be happy as long as the game goes well for the group. It's a bit like not loving your NPCs - hard, but necessary.
--------------------------------------
The critical ones for me (roughly in order):

Compelling questions/revelations, eg. "what can change the nature of a man?"
Interaction emphasized as equal to or more important than combat
Overland travel through strange paths like the Infinite Staircase or River Styx
Strong adventure hooks, eg. WHY we're planting a rose in the Abyss
Subversive fantasy playing on expected villains and outcomes

The important ones

Sigil, City of Doors, as a key adventuring site
Abstract made manifest and other really bizarre stuff
Adventures spanning multiple contrasting planes
Aesthetics (writing style, dark humor)***
15 factions managing Sigil's civil government (pre-Faction War timeline)
Philosophers with clubs playing critical roles in the adventures
Player decisions shaping the planes in a significant way (the power of belief)
Portals used as story devices to set the pace***
Portals used as a reward system***

The nice ones

Aesthetics (graphic design, art)***
Cant (planar slang)
Portals used to instantly get from adventure site A to site B
Wondrous adventure sites
Killing fiends and stealing their stuff

***Edited or added