D&D 5E Player angry about enemies climbing rope with Rope Trick

[overgeeked]

Is that in the rules somewhere?

Yes. In the DMG under building encounters. And in the discussion of CR.

Have I been doing it wrong when I grab a bunch of mooks, a sub-leader or 2, and dial my encounters to "deadly?"

Not at all. Do what works for you. I ignore CR and encounter balance entirely. But speaking about the default rules of the game can be helpful.

Probably also worth pointing out that Bounded Accuracy, that much maligned, but oh so wonderful mechanic, allows me to use a dozen goblins instead of a single (whatever would be the CR equivalent monster to 12 goblins,) and still consistently deal substantial damage to my PCs. In fact, our most recent PC death was to a bunch of crossbow wielding mooks. Maybe that's the trick. Larger groups have been a bigger threat to my players than solo or small group encounters. Maybe that's specific to our table. Maybe it's worth trying for DMs that have had difficulty challenging their players.

Absolutely. More weaker monsters is a tried and true tactic.

Goblins are CR1/4 (50XP).

12 goblins would be worth 1800XP, the equivalent to a single CR5 monster.

Which is an appropriate challenge for a full adventuring day for six 1st-level characters.

According to the DMG, at least. But the CR and XP stuff is honestly terrible.

 

[Mistwell]

That's good.

That's an edge case though. Close enough to zero hp that one hit will drop them, the first hit drops them, then the monster with two more attacks just keeps attacking the same, downed target. That's a string of if, then statements that's not going to line up all that often. It's possible, obviously...but yikes.

Not sure why it's an edge case. If you went down earlier and were brought back up with a healing word, you remain just as vulnerable to this happening. If you're in the thick of things to have been brought down that far to begin with, it's also more likely.

As for attacking a downed target, that's common. Not sure why it wouldn't be? As you pointed out, the setting has lots of ways to bring back unconscious adventurers, so foes would naturally want to prevent that from happening by making sure PCs that go down, stay down. Just like adventurers do that with trolls and such.

Of course it doesn't line up "that often." I don't recall death happening that often in any other edition either. Twice this campaign so far seems about normal for prior editions as well.

Sure. But the default is one monster against a party of four.

In 5e? No it's not. That's not even vaguely the default in 5e. Only legendary creatures in legendary lairs tend to be solo creatures in 5e by default. Where did you get that impression? None of the rules I can recall encourage solo creatures. None of the published adventures focus on solos either.

If you have more PCs and are running more monsters, it can work. Or more monsters that are lower CR, but they'll also do less damage and have fewer attacks, less likely to hit, etc.

The default 5e is built on more monsters, not solo monsters.

Right. That's the rules for that module, not the default game.

Right, and that's the same for all editions, right? We resurrected people back in 1e even.

That's still a string of if, then to down a PC. It's possible. I never said it wasn't. It's just incredibly unlikely. And much less likely than other editions.

I have no idea why you think it's unlikely. Can you explain? Do your DMs not attack downed PCs?

 

[Redwizard007]

Yes. In the DMG under building encounters. And in the discussion of CR.

Not at all. Do what works for you. I ignore CR and encounter balance entirely. But speaking about the default rules of the game can be helpful.

You sounded so sure of yourself that I actually went back through it. It certainly does not.

Absolutely. More weaker monsters is a tried and true tactic.

Goblins are CR1/4 (50XP).

12 goblins would be worth 1800XP, the equivalent to a single CR5 monster.

Its actually 600xp. The 1800xp is the Adjusted Difficulty Rating. That is the amount you use to determine how threatening the encounter is, but has nothing to do with the actual XP awarded to the party.

Which is an appropriate challenge for a full adventuring day for six 1st-level characters.



According to the DMG, at least. But the CR and XP stuff is honestly terrible.

How bout a 3rd level party? That would be about what I'd want to throw at a dozen gobbos. For 4 3rd level PCs this is a slightly deadly encounter and accounts for roughly a third of their adventuring day. Seems to fit in nicely with my 2-4 encounters per day.

 

[overgeeked]

Not sure why it's an edge case. If you went down earlier and were brought back up with a healing word, you remain just as vulnerable to this happening. If you're in the thick of things to have been brought down that far to begin with, it's also more likely.

Mostly from DMs being generally adverse to double tapping PCs. Most monsters don't, unless they watch a PC pop up after being downed and healed. And spreading out attacks is quite common.

As for attacking a downed target, that's common. Not sure why it wouldn't be? As you pointed out, the setting has lots of ways to bring back unconscious adventurers, so foes would naturally want to prevent that from happening by making sure PCs that go down, stay down. Just like adventurers do that with trolls and such.

Depends entirely on the DM and how they run monsters. Some DMs always double tap, some DMs never double tap, some DMs have intelligent monsters double tap, etc.

Of course it doesn't line up "that often." I don't recall death happening that often in any other edition either. Twice this campaign so far seems about normal for prior editions as well.

I'd disagree. Characters in older (TSR) editions were much more fragile. Getting to zero hp meant death. There was no need to double tap. Unless you used optional rules for negative hit points. But that's DM dependent.

In 5e? No it's not. That's not even vaguely the default in 5e. Only legendary creatures in legendary lairs tend to be solo creatures in 5e by default. Where did you get that impression? None of the rules I can recall encourage solo creatures. None of the published adventures focus on solos either.

The default 5e is built on more monsters, not solo monsters.

Not according to the DMG. The modules may present things differently, granted. I don't run modules, generally. But the default of 5E as presented in the DMG is one monster of a CR equal to the party of four PC's level. So a 1st-level party of four vs a single CR1 monster. Breaking that up is possible, but messes with the math. There are multipliers for additional monsters. Building an encounter on an XP budget, etc. That's the default difficulty according to the DMG. Then do that 6-8 times per adventuring day.

Right, and that's the same for all editions, right? We resurrected people back in 1e even.

If you were high enough level, had access to it, had the money to pay someone to do it, etc.

I have no idea why you think it's unlikely. Can you explain? Do your DMs not attack downed PCs?

Because in the nearly 10 years of playing 5E we've had 2 PCs die. And both were because the players wanted to stop playing their character and metagamed with the group to not heal them. The games I run are much more deadly than that, but that's because I house rule the game, homebrew monsters, and intentionally run a more deadly game.

 

[Irlo]

Not according to the DMG. The modules may present things differently, granted. I don't run modules, generally. But the default of 5E as presented in the DMG is one monster of a CR equal to the party of four PC's level. So a 1st-level party of four vs a single CR1 monster. Breaking that up is possible, but messes with the math. There are multipliers for additional monsters. Building an encounter on an XP budget, etc. That's the default difficulty according to the DMG. Then do that 6-8 times per adventuring day.

That’s not default. I encourage you to reread that section of the DMG.

 

[Mordhau]

In the past I've occasionally allowed strong enemies to pull the rope out from below, leaving whoever is up the rope-trick stuck there unless they want to jump, or have another rope they can lower.

That was my first thought about how to handle the situation when I read the OP.

 

[Mistwell]

Not according to the DMG. The modules may present things differently, granted. I don't run modules, generally. But the default of 5E as presented in the DMG is one monster of a CR equal to the party of four PC's level. So a 1st-level party of four vs a single CR1 monster. Breaking that up is possible, but messes with the math. There are multipliers for additional monsters. Building an encounter on an XP budget, etc. That's the default difficulty according to the DMG. Then do that 6-8 times per adventuring day.

You keep repeating this. But, it's not what I've seen. I just re-read the "Building Combat Encounters" section, and that's not what it says. You get an XP budget and build encounters using that with a formula presented which in no way encourages solos. No encounter builder tools do it the way you mentioned either.

I guess maybe we found the source for why your experience differs so much from many others here: 1) your DM is building more non-legendary solo encounters the the rules suggest and 2) your DM is not playing foes in a manner that the foes are actually trying to kill the adventurers that are trying to kill them. There is noting wrong with either issue, but it does skew things towards, as you say, easy mode.

 

[FrozenNorth]

weird to dare follow. Maybe one orc, but not five.

The in-game lore for orcs is that they are bloodthirsty and ruled by their emotions. In Volo’s, the principal ability of orc PCs is that they can Dash towards danger as a bonus action, but cannot Dash away from danger as a bonus action.

It is absolutely believable that multiple orcs would chase after a fleeing ranger, even if they didn’t recognize the spell. In fact, Volo’s orcs have an Int penalty, so it is more likely than not that they didn’t even consider the possibility they were running into a trap.

 

[Oofta]

That's good.

That's an edge case though. Close enough to zero hp that one hit will drop them, the first hit drops them, then the monster with two more attacks just keeps attacking the same, downed target. That's a string of if, then statements that's not going to line up all that often. It's possible, obviously...but yikes.

Sure. But the default is one monster against a party of four. If you have more PCs and are running more monsters, it can work. Or more monsters that are lower CR, but they'll also do less damage and have fewer attacks, less likely to hit, etc.

Right. That's the rules for that module, not the default game.

That's still a string of if, then to down a PC. It's possible. I never said it wasn't. It's just incredibly unlikely. And much less likely than other editions.

Sure. And everyone's experience is different. Even when players try to die, they don't.

The way you keep saying "It's possible" reminds me of The Princess Bride. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't know where you get the idea that 1 monster vs a group of 4 is the default. It's not in any game I've ever played, I can't think of any edition that made solos particularly viable. The general default is to have groups of similar monsters act on the same initiative*, it's quite possible to have multiple attacks on the same downed foe. It just depends on what kind of experience the group wants. It's something I discuss during session 0, if I wanted to kill of PCs left and right it wouldn't be hard.

As other's have said, if a PC goes down in combat and pop back up it's likely their HP are still in the single digits. It's not hard to take them out again.

...

According to the DMG, at least. But the CR and XP stuff is honestly terrible.

It also appears to be set for a party of 4 casual players with no magic items, no feats and likely point buy. I wish they had discussed adjusting difficulty a bit more, but it's not like the D&D swat team is going to break into your house and shut down your game if you adjust difficulty to fit your group. D&D is not a board game, there is far, far too much variety to have one size fits all. I've had to adjust the target number for every group I've ever DMed based on the mix of PCs and players, even though I use the same options. No one set of guidelines could ever account for all the variation I've seen when the primary difference is who sits down at the table.

As far as PCs being raised from the dead, that's always been part of the game. Revivify just cut back on the amount of downtime the player experiences and gets them back into the game more quickly. Assuming the party has it available, of course. PCs die with about the same regularity in my 5E campaigns as they always have. Dying at 0? Even BECMI had optional rules for not dying at 0. You have to go back decades to find a version that people died at 0 in 2E, even then we house ruled in an "unconscious" option.

The game has always been and continues to be as lethal for the PCs as the group desires.

*See DMG Chapter 8: Running the Game section on initiative. Personally if I have a lot of the same monsters, I break them up into multiple initiative groups if I have more than 5.

 

[Mordhau]

You obviously can challenge players. You just keep raising the difficulty of encounters until you find the breakpoint. Sooner or later you will get dead PCs. That part's not difficult.

I feel that there is a problem here, but the way it's being stated obviously doesn't really get at the roots of it. A lot of people have the experience that 5e isn't particularly hard so there's clearly something behind it, but it's clearly not because it's impossible to challenge the PCs.

Clearly it has something to do with the nature of the challenges on a different axis to whether or not a PC actually risks death. I have some thoughts on this, but I'm not sure it's worth it in a thread not specifically devoted to this topic.