Player Control, OR "How the game has changed over the years, and why I don't like it"

[Balesir]

Prostrate also means face down, but as I already quoted above, in actual usage prone means face down.

Is that some kind of American thing? Because I've never heard it used that way over here - nor have I ever pictured it as being so restricted. To me, 'prone' just means "lying on the ground", period. The term "flat on his back, prone" would make absolute sense. Have I been mistaken all these years?

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's a convenient mental shortcut to think of the fiction shaping the outcomes and "consistency", but it doesn't. It can't. It doesn't exist. It is a mere figment of our imaginations.

IYHO, perhaps. Not mine.

I would say that the mechanics are there to answer unknowns about the fiction, i.e., to enter the "game" aspect into an rpg (otherwise, we could simply call it "collaborative story-telling").


RC

 

[The Shaman]

Using a definition in the dictionary is cherry-picking?

No, using part of a definition out of context is cherry-picking.

 

[The Shaman]

The term "flat on his back, prone" would make absolute sense.

The term, "flat on his back, supine," would be the correct usage.

 

[MarkB]

The term, "flat on his back, supine," would be the correct usage.

So would "flat on his back, prone", since "prone" in common English usage simply means "lying down". It may have narrower definitions, but those definitions aren't in general use, and the English language is defined through usage, not regulated via academia.

 

[Fifth Element]

So would "flat on his back, prone", since "prone" in common English usage simply means "lying down". It may have narrower definitions, but those definitions aren't in general use, and the English language is defined through usage, not regulated via academia.

This is what I'm saying.

In some contexts, the differentiation between prone and supine is meaningful and important. D&D is not one of those contexts. In everyday parlance, people use prone to mean lying down, and simply don't use supine.

 

[Fifth Element]

Is that some kind of American thing? Because I've never heard it used that way over here - nor have I ever pictured it as being so restricted. To me, 'prone' just means "lying on the ground", period. The term "flat on his back, prone" would make absolute sense. Have I been mistaken all these years?

No you haven't.

One of the definitions in the dictionary is "lying face down". Another of the definitions is just "lying down" without specifying which side is up.

Both of these are definitions of the word prone, and using either is fine.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Seriously, words actually mean things, and their errant usage by so-called professional writers is really inexcusable.

Yeah, Shaman? Buddy?

You're being super anal* about this.

Especially because you're wrong:

b. Of (the posture or attitude of) a person or animal: such that the belly is next to the ground, or lies beneath the body; lying face downwards or on one's belly; bending forward and downward; facing downwards. Also fig. Cf. prostrate adj. 1a.

In strict use opposed to supine. In later use freq. more generally with reference to lying horizontal, or on the ground, without specific implication as to bodily posture.

c. Of something usually erect or standing, as a tower, column, etc.: lying flat, or in a horizontal position; that has fallen down or been cut down. Cf. prostrate adj. 1b.

* Oh, and:

2b : of, relating to, or characterized by personality traits (as parsimony, meticulousness, and ill humor) considered typical of fixation at the anal stage of development

... from M-W's Medical Dictionary.

 

[Balesir]

I would say that the mechanics are there to answer unknowns about the fiction,

But everything is unknown about the fiction, because it doesn't exist. That's my point. Everything about the fiction must be established via a process - the mechanics. Take a look at "Universalis" for a particularly graphic use of this in a roleplaying system. In other game systems, a slew of assumptions, unverbalised but accepted conventions and habitual tropes suffice to underpin the mechanics outside of a very narrow area that is specifically treated by "the rules". That doesn't mean that there is any such thing as an independent "fiction" that, like medieval "justice", exists somewhere to be discovered - it just means that the mechanics are social and nobody is thinking about them very deeply.

As to perhaps the most common trope about "making sense", time for some words from Rene Descartes:
"Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have."

i.e., to enter the "game" aspect into an rpg (otherwise, we could simply call it "collaborative story-telling").

An RPG is collaborative storytelling, even though collaborative storytelling is not necessarily an RPG. A story is generated by collaboration (or by the GM, but then one wonders why the players are there, and arguably they are not even roleplaying). Other stuff is needed, too - which is why not all collaborative storytelling is roleplaying.

 

[Raven Crowking]

But everything is unknown about the fiction, because it doesn't exist. That's my point. Everything about the fiction must be established via a process - the mechanics.

Shennanigans.

I begin the process of creating the fiction without referencing the mechanics. Indeed, I choose the mechanics that match the fiction after the basics of the fiction are established. The fiction comes first.

The fiction "exists" in exactly the same way that the mechanics "exist" -- as a series of ideas invented by, and utilized by, individuals. Neither fiction nor mechanics exist prior to their invention; after the fact, both exist.

Which is not to say that a real Narnia exists, but rather that the fictional Narnia, as imagined, has exactly the same level of existence as the instruction to "roll 1d20, add modifiers, and compare to a DC" exists.

An RPG is collaborative storytelling, even though collaborative storytelling is not necessarily an RPG. A story is generated by collaboration (or by the GM, but then one wonders why the players are there, and arguably they are not even roleplaying). Other stuff is needed, too - which is why not all collaborative storytelling is roleplaying.

There is that which differentiates a salmon from all other fish, i.e., which defines the "salmon" aspect of the creature (otherwise, we could simply call it "fish" without any need to differentiate).

Clearer?


RC