Players, GMs, and "My character"...

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These two quotes pretty well sum up my opinion here.

If the dm is telling the pcs what they do, he is stepping over the line of "proper dm behavior" imho. If the dm has a story that he wants to tell or a direction he wants the campaign to go in, he needs buy in from the players so that they choose to follow his hooks.

Whenever a pc's actions are assumed or mandated in an adventure, I cringe.

See, there is a fine line between what is implied here and what I am saying.

I don't want to seem to imply that the DM is telling the PCs what to do, but the problem arises when there is a failing of each to meet eye to eye.

To whit: I recall an adventure where the PCs began in a bar looking for work (an old D&D chestnut). One player, right off the bat, disliked this scenario. He claimed his PC wouldn't be in a bar and he wouldn't be friends with an elf since his PC disliked elves (and another PC was an elf).

How would you you handle said scenario? Obviously, the player was being an antagonist (and a jerk) but what if the whole group decided they didn't want to be in a bar looking for adventure and go off and become bandits (which completely different than the tone/game you as a GM want to run?)

See? Communication.
 

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See, to an extent you're both right; a GM shouldn't tell PCs how to act or what to do, but there are times when the GM wishes to advance a story*. . .
Get thee behind me, Satan!

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. . . and the PCs react poorly to it.

* Yes, I know story is a evil, black word that makes some people break out in convulsions. Let me clarify. Unless your game involves the PCs wandering exactly wherever they want to and doing ONLY what they chose to do, the Gm will place obstacles, goals and reasons for them in ways to make the PCs react. If they want the fabled treasure of Akun-Ra, they need to enter the desert of woe and seek the five keys that lock it. If a PC decides his PC can't/won't jump through said hoop, the game can logjam until either the GM or the Player compromise; even if that compromise is forgetting the treasure and hunting orcs in the Sugg Swamp.
If you are referring to "obstacles, goals and reasons for them" as the wheels of the world in motion, then we are in agreement.

If you're talking about placing things in front of them to force them to react like a charged wire against a frog's leg, then see the first part of my reply.
 

"My character wouldn't do that" can only be met by one response:

"OK, what does she do?"

And if she goes left where the rest of 'em go straight on, and she dies and they don't, well - them's the breaks. (of course, if they die and she doesn't, them's also the breaks...)

Not that big a deal, really, unless you're dictating PC actions without bothering to charm or dominate them first. :)

Lanefan
 

See, there is a fine line between what is implied here and what I am saying.

I don't want to seem to imply that the DM is telling the PCs what to do, but the problem arises when there is a failing of each to meet eye to eye.

To whit: I recall an adventure where the PCs began in a bar looking for work (an old D&D chestnut). One player, right off the bat, disliked this scenario. He claimed his PC wouldn't be in a bar and he wouldn't be friends with an elf since his PC disliked elves (and another PC was an elf).

How would you you handle said scenario? Obviously, the player was being an antagonist (and a jerk) but what if the whole group decided they didn't want to be in a bar looking for adventure and go off and become bandits (which completely different than the tone/game you as a GM want to run?)

See? Communication.

First, the DM should set up the initial play expectations in the invitation to play. Hey guys, I want to run D&D where the PCs are <heroes/detectives/rebels/lost princes/whatever> in a world of <ancient mystery/heavy intrigue/alien invasion/whatever>/ Character creation is using <4d6/poiint buy/elite array/whatever>. One of the main expectations is the group can be a group -- please build characters that will mostly work with the other PCs. I don't have time to run one campaign per player, unfortunately. House rules will follow if we get a game together.

Having built an explicit social contract with the players, the DM can call out when behaviour is outside the expected norm.

Character wouldn't be in a bar or be friends with an elf? Guess it just retired -- want to make a character that fits the game or go home?

Group wants a radical change in game play? Guys, we have a problem. I came prepared for X, but now you're doing Y. We can (1) have one of you DM, (2) break for the day and play a board game or something until I determine if I can/want to run Y, or (3) throw a wrench into the characters' plans and revert to X or some close approximation of X.
 

Five words that never bothered me as a DM. :)

"My character wouldn't do that" will only be said to a DM who is, in fact trying to tell a player what his/her character is doing.

Don't do it and ye shall never hear it.

Agreed!

It is true that players should make characters that are willing to engage the campaign milieu. It is equally important that the GM realize that the one place they cannot tread is "what your PC would do". That is the sole province of the players.



RC
 

See, there is a fine line between what is implied here and what I am saying.

I don't want to seem to imply that the DM is telling the PCs what to do, but the problem arises when there is a failing of each to meet eye to eye.

To whit: I recall an adventure where the PCs began in a bar looking for work (an old D&D chestnut). One player, right off the bat, disliked this scenario. He claimed his PC wouldn't be in a bar and he wouldn't be friends with an elf since his PC disliked elves (and another PC was an elf).

How would you you handle said scenario? Obviously, the player was being an antagonist (and a jerk) but what if the whole group decided they didn't want to be in a bar looking for adventure and go off and become bandits (which completely different than the tone/game you as a GM want to run?)

See? Communication.

Ok mister elf hater you are not in a bar. Where are you?

The rest of you are approached by a rather attractive elf babe that looks like she is in some sort of distress.

"Um. I am down by the dock seeing if any ships need crewmen."

Great. I'll get back to you. Because there are 6 of you guys, the larger group gets 50 minutes out of each play hour, thats fair at 10 min. per player. In the meantime make yourself useful and keep an eye on the pizza rolls for us.
 

Five words that never bothered me as a DM. :)

"My character wouldn't do that" will only be said to a DM who is, in fact trying to tell a player what his/her character is doing.

Don't do it and ye shall never hear it.

I've seen those words come up in two real situations that are problematic.

The first is to have them presented as justification for disruptive actions. A PC who steals from other characters can be a problem. The easiest approach is to try and talk with the player and ask them not to have a character do that - at which point you start to here, "That's just how the character acts!" There are certainly other approaches. Coming up with in-character consequences tends to be the most common one, but can also elicit claims that you are picking on that PC.

Either way, I don't think it unreasonable to try to get a potentially disruptive PC to stop acting disruptive, or stop ruining the game for other players.

The other situation is when a PC simply happens to not fit with the plot of the game. Some farmers want to hire the PCs to go slay a black dragon that is ruining their lands. 4 PCs agree, but the last says he won't due it, because he loves dragons. Or has an irrational hatred of farmers. Or will only go if they pay him 10,000 gp.

Now, a DM can just go ahead and run with that - either by having the other PCs go on the adventure and leave him behind (and then either ignore him, or let him RP hanging out in town drinking), or by coming up with some extremely convoluted reason to convince him to go along.

But that doesn't change the fact it can be frustrating for a DM when a PC has some backstory element that puts them completely at odds with the direction of the game.
 

If the DM ever hears these words, he's done something wrong. He's either tried to narrate player action, or he's jumped to a 'bang' based off a wrong assumption, or he's constructed a plot without enough branching points and contingencies, or he's got in his head that his campaign as a novel, or he's approved a character concept that should have been a huge red flag, or he's approved a character concept without really talking it over with the player, or he's got in his head that there is only one true path to fun and all others must be avoided.

Whatever the cause, he's the one being a problem here - not the player. I don't think there is really all that much room for comprimise here. The DM is pretty much 100% at fault in just about 100% of cases. I think I'm in agreement with The Shaman in this if I understand him correctly. I honestly can't think of a situation where a DM hears these words where it isn't incumbant on the DM to apologize. If having to apologize to your players is how you define 'chilling', I guess I'm sort of in agreement with you, because its never fun to learn you've screwed up.

1) Narrating Player Action: You should never tell a player what their character does or how they respond emotionally to something, except in the fringe case of their character being mentally dominated by something (which shouldn't happen very often) as provided by by the rules. You shouldn't do this even as color, nor should you do it as part of a text dump or hook. You shouldn't even do this by expounding on extended action in a scene that occurs as the result of player choice. Every point where there is a player choice between too paths, or where the player can explore and learn new information, you should stop - even where it seems trivial. If the PC's declare there intention to go down a road until they come to a city, you should pause when they get in sight of the city, and pause again when they have the choice to actually go through the gates. This is to give them time to investigate the scene and decide whether they want to continue with thier stated path. It can be awkward to prompt for trivial propositions, but its alot less awkward than getting, "My character would never do that."
2) 'Bang' Based off Wrong Assumption: This is at least for me the most likely place where I'll err. For me, I'm always ready to move a slow scene on to the predicament, the challenge, the real meat and point of the scene. Sometimes I get in the rush and instead of waiting for my players to signal their clear intentions, I make assumptions about their intentions or their current disposition and then I get slapped back (and rightfully sometimes) for creating a scene that didn't actually involve player consent and participation. Sometimes its a player being deliberately ambigious, but even then, its my job to pick up on that and force the player to narrate concrete actions or intentions. Sometimes you just have to say, "Tell me more about...", or "I don't understand your intention...", or "Maybe if you'd show me what you want to do rather than just tell me..." Don't get too anxious for the show to start if the players are showing trepidation and caution.
3) Non-branching plot: This is a 'turn in your DM card' sort of error in my opinion, and its really only excusable in the most novice of GM's. Anyone who has actually referee'd an RPG for any length of time ought to know that the DM can't predict player action, and that the player's will always do things that are unexpected. You should never create a story that absolutely hinges on any one action, and you better be prepared to adapt what you have to what the players actually do.
4) Campaign as a novel: Usually this is a mistake of a slightly more mature and sophisticated DM who has begun to create plots more complex than 'hack and slash'. The DM creates elaborate plot lines and eventually gets invested in the story turning out in a particular way that he finds emotionally satisfying. Suddenly the PC's - while still 'protagonized' in a sense - find that there status as the games protagonists depends on them making the choices the DM has prepared for them to remain relevant to the plot. It becomes critical that they befriend the widowed noble lady, or whatever, and the DM gets upset when they ignore her and his elaborately concieved character drama suddenly grinds to a halt. The basic problem here is that DM is unwilling to share the story. It's a failure to trust the players. If you aren't willing to share the story, you should actually be writing a novel and not a campaign.
5) Approved Anti-Social Character Concept: This is a problem that occurs when your players first start to mature and become sophisticated RPers. The DM starts trusting the players, and is impressed with the depth of the character conception, but fails to realize that the character is one that really works only in a novel. Functional games have character constraints that you don't have in a novel because in a novel the audience is the reader, where as in a game the audience is effectively the character's themselves. The reader doesn't necessarily mind if the characters don't share screen time, or if they have conflicts, or if the plot branches at various points. But all of these things can make the game less fun for the players. It's up to the DM to recognize character concepts that will negatively impact the campaign and discuss ahead of time how the player will handle those challenges. Cowards, zealots, bigots, misanthropes, home bodies, hermits, sociopaths, traitors, and so forth all require very delicate handling by the player and in most cases simply need to be overruled as valid character concepts. If you approved a character concept that will balk at participating with the other PC's, then you have a problem and you are primarily at fault. The only way the player could be at fault here is if player has changed his concept mid-play or proceeded to concieve his character contrary to your mutual agreement prior to the campaign starting. In that case, what you have is an anti-social player, not an anti-social character.
6) Approved Character Without Looking at It: I have no sympathy for that. If you didn't bother to think about what the player was going to play, and ended up with a CE assassin and a LG paladin in the same party, then you get what you deserve. Not every collection of characters is compatible. It doesn't really take alot of experience to realize that.
7) One True Path To Fun: This is the small scale case of creating a novel instead of a campaign. DMs should spend time imagining events in their game, to help ready themselves to play. What they should not do is become emotionally invested in the actual game exactly matching their imaginations. They should be prepared to enjoy the unexpected. They should be willing to enjoy the game that actually happens, not the game that they expected to happen.
 

There was a lot of PC separation in the games I played in during the late 90s. Lot of Amber, lot of White Wolf. They were rather like the Philip K Dick novel, The Man In The High Castle, in which, I think, the protagonists never meet one another. GMs down my way at the time were strongly influenced by fiction, they regarded themselves as primarily storytellers, using techniques like foreshadowing, cut scenes and, ofc, switching between protagonists. These 'storygames' were not predetermined, each individual player's story had an unknown ending, each player had a lot of freedom. Too much, in fact. The problem was there was no clear unifying motive or objective as there is in D&D - go down dungeon, get treasure, get xp. The PCs were more like real people, or characters in a well-told story - plausible, believable. Problem is, that doesn't really work in an rpg.

I felt we never got enough direction from the GMs in those games. We were free to create any PC we wanted, with the result that there was no party, no unifying goal or even shared culture.

There was one GM in particular, Will, who was notorious for keeping the PCs separated. In a Forgotten Realms game he ran I think the campaign ended before any of the PCs had ever met one another, after something like ten sessions.

Once I co-operated with Will writing one-shots for the Glasgow Student Nationals (rpg tournament). We would each write a scenario and both run one scenario on Saturday and the other on Sunday. The problem with Will's scenario was that none of the PCs could meet until about halfway thru. Up until that point they were appearing in their own little vignettes, establishing their characters. Fine for a story, unacceptable in a campaign, and utterly fatal in a one-shot, imo.

The thing is, Will's scenario was, in almost all other respects, utterly brilliant. A Golden Age superhero adventure, wonderfully period appropriate, comics literate, influenced by Warren Ellis, Sandman Mystery Theatre and John Steinbeck. A flawed masterpiece, really.

What I'm saying, in a long-winded way, is that the GM does have some responsibility to keep the group together. In D&D one often doesn't have to think about this - the xp system and basic assumptions regarding parties and dungeons do that for you, provided you are running traditional D&D. In many rpgs, sometimes D&D, the players need a bit of direction from the GM, particularly at the start, so their PCs don't literally live in different continents, or dimensions. Sounds ridiculous but I've seen it happen more than once. The GM imo bears the primary responsibility for this preparatory work, which even includes PC motivations. Games where the party is split up don't really work, imo. And imx, it was mostly GMs at fault for splitting the party. Or rather, never joining it in the first place.

It's been said before that players and GM have to meet one another halfway in terms of the GM's prepared material. Ultimately the players have to, in most games, interact with what the GM has prepared. But that's also true, as Remathilis says, of the players. They also have to meet one another halfway.
 
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But that doesn't change the fact it can be frustrating for a DM when a PC has some backstory element that puts them completely at odds with the direction of the game.

That should never happen. Why didn't you read the backstory and go, "Wait a minute? You want to play a homebody misanthrope how loves dragons and hates farmers? I'm afraid that's just not going to work with the rest of the group, and I'm going to have a hard time creating a story for that character to participate in that everyone else will find satisfying. I could run a game for this character if you were the only one playing, but you aren't."

You have to work with the players to come up with character concepts that work both for them and for you and the rest of the group. It's a requirement of wearing the DM hat. I learned this the hard way (and I'm sure most DM's do). You can't just give the players a blank check to create any sort of character that they want and then expect it to work out, and this is particularly true if you have imaginative and sophisticated RPer's for players.
 

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