Player's Handbook 2: I haz it

[Felon]

Oh and I may have missed it in this thread but Half-Orcs are +2 Str and +2????

Wisdom

 

[Felon]

This feat is an worthwhile addition to the game, allowing all classes to have a credible melee basic attack instead of just Str-based classes (and swordmages).

And why is every class entitled to have a credible melee basic attack? Isn't the point of investing a decent number in an ability score that you reap some benefit that the guy who lowballed it doesn't? Shouldn't there be some slight imposition to being a paladin with pipe-cleaner arms that can't be ameliorated with a feat?

This is one of the big ham-handed elements of 4e. After you're done plugging in these different variables, the end goal seems to be to wind up with everyone having the same bonuses. The notion that a class is broken if it can't use its best ability scores to derive all important stats begs the question of why the heck the game bothers to have ability scores in the first place.

Another case in point...

And this is what I'm most concerned about. Until now, I hadn't seen any class whose AC didn't scale at the same rate as everyone else.

EVERY class has Int or Dex as either their primary or secondary stat OR they get an ability that adds their primary or secondary stat to their AC.

So far every character I've made up chooses his primary and secondary stats as his stat bumps at EVERY chance. And I don't much see a reason not to except maybe 1 or 2 levels to qualify for a feat.

That being the case, as you mention, everyone gains 4 to their AC from 1st level to 30th level EXCEPT Barbarians(and the defending Shaman who has Con as a secondary). Barbarians only gain 2.

They already start with the lowest average AC out of any class. They'd better be able to generate temp hitpoints like CRAZY to make up for their AC.

I've got a player with the playtest barbarian. After all the clamor about barbarians having a lower AC, it turns out that he has the same AC as the paladin would have if he didn't use a shield. He spent a couple of feats on armor proficiencies. Apparently, in 4e having a mediocre aility score won't force you to live with a below-average bonus for attack, damage, or AC--it just means you'll have to spend a feat to catch up.

But again, what's the point of finding different ways to derive AC if the ultimate of goal of a "well-designed" class is that it will ultimately have the same AC as any other class of that level?

As for the general starting point of a barbarian's AC... I forget sometimes that everyone else plays point buy. I play array. In my games a barbarian would have a 12 or 13 in dex or int as a matter of course. In a point buy game, people can specialize more, which psychologically tends to mean dumping defense for more offense. I don't know what to say about this part other than that its not an issue that will bedevil my game.

See, my group uses array too. I suspect if we used point-buy, you'd see every character with two inflated ability scores, and after that the rest will get lowballed unless there's some feat they want to meet the prereqs for.

 

[Felon]

I may have missed it elsewhere. What's the fiction/fluff behind the deva, anyone know?

The FR Player's Guide identifies devas as the beings formerly referred to as Aasimar. They are angels incarnated in mortal flesh, and they reincarnate in perpetuity.

 

[Piratecat]

What? This isn't even correct they are +2 str and +2 dex stop spreading blatant misinformation.

It's okay to correct someone who's mistaken without accusing them of lying.

 

[Piratecat]

They were once astral servitors of the gods who incarnated in the world to fight evil, and are constantly reincarnated. They don't reproduce, but when they reincarnate, they wake up fully grown in a sacred location. It's also mentioned that if they become corrupted, they risk becoming raksasha.

Cooool...

Thanks, Dave!

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Wisdom

Dex actually. This has been confirmed in the other thread with the people who own the books.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

One thing I don't think that anyone asked is... What are totems supposed to look like?

 

[Kez Darksun]

One thing I don't think that anyone asked is... What are totems supposed to look like?

From the Shaman preview: Shamans use totems carved to resemble the spirits they most commonly call upon, particularly their spirit companions.

 

[Joshua Randall]

And why is every class entitled to have a credible melee basic attack?

Because it is a key element of combat, and because there is an entire class (the warlord) whose shtick depends on granting people extra actions.

Isn't the point of investing a decent number in an ability score that you reap some benefit that the guy who lowballed it doesn't?

Jeez, it's just melee basic attacks. It's not like this feat allows the wizard or the rogue to use Int or Dex for Str-based powers.

The notion that a class is broken if it can't use its best ability scores to derive all important stats begs the question of why the heck the game bothers to have ability scores in the first place.

You overstate things to make your point, but I essentially agree with you. Ability score are obsolete, but I think they are too much of a sacred cow for D&D to kill them off completely.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

And why is every class entitled to have a credible melee basic attack? Isn't the point of investing a decent number in an ability score that you reap some benefit that the guy who lowballed it doesn't? Shouldn't there be some slight imposition to being a paladin with pipe-cleaner arms that can't be ameliorated with a feat?

There is. You get to use your class powers better than someone with a different stat. The game is based around class powers. Basic attacks are used so rarely that this feat won't even apply most of the time. The reason every class deserves to have a credible melee basic attack is because you can't hit with a decent chance of success with less than an 18 in your primary stat. You need at least a 16 in your secondary stat for it to be useful in most cases. Both of these stats need to scale in order to keep up with the curve. So, there are just no points left for STR or DEX if you don't use them as a primary or secondary stat.

This is one of the big ham-handed elements of 4e. After you're done plugging in these different variables, the end goal seems to be to wind up with everyone having the same bonuses. The notion that a class is broken if it can't use its best ability scores to derive all important stats begs the question of why the heck the game bothers to have ability scores in the first place.

Yes, the goal is to have CLOSE to the same numbers as everyone else. While still allowing for a little variations based on theme. My fighter, for instance, only started with a 17 STR because he wanted a 15 DEX and WIS so he could qualify for polearm feats. Which makes him different from the 16 STR Dwarf Fighter I know who has even lower strength so that he'd be tougher by taking an 18 CON. This allows the Warforged Fighter I know with 20 STR to really shine in the hit and damage department. But not shine enough that I feel completely useless playing with him.

On the other hand, if you were suddenly tell us that for our class to be able to make OAs, we'd need a decent INT, I'd get annoyed, and likely would never use OAs. They don't happen enough to sacrifice my chance of hitting with my real powers.

Oh, and I agree that ability scores are not important. They could be gotten rid of, but they currently still provide a bit of variation in characters. I still have to sacrifice my Diplomacy check in order to have my stats, and it provides me a disadvantage in Skill Challenges.

I've got a player with the playtest barbarian. After all the clamor about barbarians having a lower AC, it turns out that he has the same AC as the paladin would have if he didn't use a shield. He spent a couple of feats on armor proficiencies. Apparently, in 4e having a mediocre aility score won't force you to live with a below-average bonus for attack, damage, or AC--it just means you'll have to spend a feat to catch up.

But again, what's the point of finding different ways to derive AC if the ultimate of goal of a "well-designed" class is that it will ultimately have the same AC as any other class of that level?

Because you shouldn't have to "find ways" to derive AC. Especially not while staying in theme. In books, fantasy paintings, movies and the like, the Rogue is always wearing leather or no armor. It's the typical image of a Rogue. Right now the game works fine as a Rogue with leather armor. But, assume that you got your CON bonus instead of DEX bonus. You'd probably typically have an AC of 13. And you'd drop nearly constantly. So, the only solution to it would be to take chain armor. Then every Rogue would be wearing chain. Which ruins the view of Rogue in my eyes.

The same thing applies to Barbarians. They should be wearing light armor. So, you need to make to mechanically good to do so. You also shouldn't be BAD unless you spend a feat. You should be average and perfectly playable without any feats at all. Feats should be taken to enhance specific areas that you want to be better than other people at.

I have no problem with the idea that a Barbarian can take a feat to make his AC go up slightly. But currently, the armor proficiencies don't really help any other class as much as them.

As for your other comment, having a mediocre ability score in 4e can't be make up for at all. Except Barbarians who take armor proficiency. A Wizard with a 14 INT is going to miss with most of his powers for the entirety of the game all the way to level 30 with no feat that can change that.

See, my group uses array too. I suspect if we used point-buy, you'd see every character with two inflated ability scores, and after that the rest will get lowballed unless there's some feat they want to meet the prereqs for.

Yeah, that's the typical 4e character. I have yet to see a character made whose primary and secondary stats were less than 16. Typically with one of them as an 18. Then the rest of the points are distributed afterwords. The game encourages this. In many places. The designers specifically wrote it into the advice for the classes, saying that your best stat should be your primary, your second best your secondary then worry about the other stats.