Player's Handbook 2: I haz it

[Felon]

Because it is a key element of combat, and because there is an entire class (the warlord) whose shtick depends on granting people extra actions.

The the guys with a good ability score in Strength should reap the benefit. The guys who bombed their Str to 8 should suck it up. Cost, benefit. No cost, consequence.

Jeez, it's just melee basic attacks. It's not like this feat allows the wizard or the rogue to use Int or Dex for Str-based powers.

Can't have it both ways. It's either important or it's not. And as you point out with the warlord, many PHB powers interface with basic attacks, and their balance assumed that basic attacks are suboptimal. Take the rogue's Riposte at-will. This feat makes that follow-up attack far more powerful.

 

[Felon]

There is. You get to use your class powers better than someone with a different stat. The game is based around class powers. Basic attacks are used so rarely that this feat won't even apply most of the time. The reason every class deserves to have a credible melee basic attack is because you can't hit with a decent chance of success with less than an 18 in your primary stat. You need at least a 16 in your secondary stat for it to be useful in most cases. Both of these stats need to scale in order to keep up with the curve. So, there are just no points left for STR or DEX if you don't use them as a primary or secondary stat.

The the guys with a good ability score in Strength should reap the benefit. The guys who bombed their Str to 8 should suck it up. Cost, benefit. No cost, consequence.

Pirmary ability scores need to be as high as possible. Secondary ability scores, however, do not not need to be at least 16 in most cases. A 14 will yield good benefits. If not, then humans wouldn't be quite as good of a pick as they are.

Yes, the goal is to have CLOSE to the same numbers as everyone else. While still allowing for a little variations based on theme. My fighter, for instance, only started with a 17 STR because he wanted a 15 DEX and WIS so he could qualify for polearm feats. Which makes him different from the 16 STR Dwarf Fighter I know who has even lower strength so that he'd be tougher by taking an 18 CON. This allows the Warforged Fighter I know with 20 STR to really shine in the hit and damage department. But not shine enough that I feel completely useless playing with him.

The fighter is worth noting as the class that had the right idea. There are different benefits for distributing ability scores differently, and it's not necessarily just reflected betwen only two of the six ability scores. Unfortunately, just about every other class is a departure from that design.

On the other hand, if you were suddenly tell us that for our class to be able to make OAs, we'd need a decent INT, I'd get annoyed, and likely would never use OAs. They don't happen enough to sacrifice my chance of hitting with my real powers.

But OA's don't need INT. They need an ability score that's appropriate to making a basic attack. I just don't see where it's a good thing to see 98 lb. weakling paladins as the norm. It's similar to your thematic issues with the barbarian's armor.

The same thing applies to Barbarians. They should be wearing light armor. So, you need to make to mechanically good to do so. You also shouldn't be BAD unless you spend a feat. You should be average and perfectly playable without any feats at all. Feats should be taken to enhance specific areas that you want to be better than other people at.

I have no problem with the idea that a Barbarian can take a feat to make his AC go up slightly. But currently, the armor proficiencies don't really help any other class as much as them.

There are a couple of options when it comes to AC: wear armor, or be nimble. If the barb is wearing a loincloth, and he's a clumsy ox, then why shouldn't he be getting hit more often than others who actively invested in AC?

Yeah, that's the typical 4e character. I have yet to see a character made whose primary and secondary stats were less than 16. Typically with one of them as an 18. Then the rest of the points are distributed afterwords. The game encourages this. In many places. The designers specifically wrote it into the advice for the classes, saying that your best stat should be your primary, your second best your secondary then worry about the other stats.

Sure, 3e encouraged that too, just to a more reasonable degree. The difference is, there were still plenty of choices and consequences for how to align ability scores. I expected to 4e to improve upon this.

 

[Drakhar]

But OA's don't need INT. They need an ability score that's appropriate to making a basic attack. I just don't see where it's a good thing to see 98 lb. weakling paladins as the norm. It's similar to your thematic issues with the barbarian's armor.

Then limit Melee Training to allowing them to use Dex, nimble enough to sneak your weapon in to attack, or Int, smart enough to notice the opening. Heck Wisdom could be used to as an attack stat if you're creative enough. The only stat that really doesn't make much sense to be used as a melee attack stat is Con, although.. if it was a counter attack based attack I could imagine it working..

 

[Piratecat]

Felon, please fork or start a new thread if you want to discuss that. I'd rather this thread not be derailed.

 

[Cadfan]

The the guys with a good ability score in Strength should reap the benefit. The guys who bombed their Str to 8 should suck it up. Cost, benefit. No cost, consequence.

Feat = cost.

 

[Felon]

Feat = cost.

Not really.

Felon, please fork or start a new thread if you want to discuss that. I'd rather this thread not be derailed.

Fair enough. I wanted to get back to your deva questions anyway.

What do devas look like? Are they distinguishable as what they are?

 

[WalterKovacs]

One thing about the "weakling paladin's" ... it's perfectly ok for them to be beating up the baddies with a melee weapon the entire fight ... except when it's with an OA? A rogue is able to wield a rapier or dagger as if he had weapon finesse most of the time ... unless he tries to hit the guy that is passing by?

Now for some [using it with a wizard or warlock, for example] it's going to be a bit weird. However, for the people most likely to be using it ... it allows them to use the same stat they use for every other melee attack when they charge, make an OA, etc. Rogue's with DEX, Paladins with CHA, Avengers with WIS, Swordmages with INT ... they all have melee weapon powers that don't use STR ... is it that far fetched for them to apply the same skills that allow them to do so many non-STR based melee attacks to make OAs, charges, and help out the warlord?

Ultimately, they still miss out in other areas. The biggest is that ... weapon feats ultimately rely on STR. There are a few that don't, but it's mostly STR and another stat, especially the epic tier. There is also grabbing and bull rushing, which now have feats to make them viable options. STR is also tied to Athletics which, unlike most skills, is one that everyone in the party may require (climbing, escaping grabs, etc).

Not to mention, that wizards and warlocks, etc ... would have to invest in magical weapons in addition to their implements (although their are options like pact blades ... which until now were a bit odd as there were pretty few uses for them as the class didn't really lend itself to having stats that would have allowed them to attack with it, if anything it was for charismatic rogues that multiclassed into warlock) and even then, they begin with little in the way of weapon proficiencies, and will either give up more useful properties of their implements, or dual wield weapon with implement, therefore avoiding two handed weapons, weilding two weapons, or having a weapon and shield.

Each stat matters, however they have made it so that less and less is there a single stat that always matters more than the rest.

EDIT: Oops ... didn't see the fork request.

 

[Felon]

Dex actually. This has been confirmed in the other thread with the people who own the books.

What? This isn't even correct they are +2 str and +2 dex stop spreading blatant misinformation.

The spoilers I read at RPGNet said Wisdom. That one was, IIRC, based on a half-orc avenger folks got a preview of, so Dave's PHB2 preview trumps it, unfortunately. Few dual stats make sense for the orc, but I found Wisdom to be about as reasonable as it gets. Dex, less so.

Honestly, the half-orc hardly needs two complimentary ability score boosts, as he three really, really good class features that smack of power creep all by themselves.

 

[ff6shadow]

Can't have it both ways. It's either important or it's not. And as you point out with the warlord, many PHB powers interface with basic attacks, and their balance assumed that basic attacks are suboptimal. Take the rogue's Riposte at-will. This feat makes that follow-up attack far more powerful.

I want to point out that this is wrong. Riposte Strike doesn't give a basic attack as a counter, so it gains no boost at all.


Back on tpoic, could someone explain how Coordinated Explosion and Restful Healing work?

 

[TarionzCousin]

What do devas look like? Are they distinguishable as what they are?

Generally they wear slinky shiny low-cut dresses with big hair and even bigger voices.