Players Handbook vs the Dungeon Master

[Dagger75]

The story, I threw my party up against soem Fire Giants with Anti-Magic Field cast on them by a 15th level Wizard. Any way, my players didn't know anything about the spell or how to defeat it. They ended up opening the Players Handbook when it wasn't there turn and read the spell, noted its effects and possible weaknesses and began to change there tactics.

Now was that wrong? I mean the spell was in Players Handbook and I have seen many many times here on the boards that the players should have this book.

True, I could have asked them not to look up the spell but it didn't really bother me. I basically wanted to give them a lesson and I think they learned it, BUT my question is should a DM ask a player NOT to look in the PLAYERS Handbook?

 

[EricNoah]

I give my players funny looks when they start looking up opponents' spells during combat. It's pretty much an unspoken no-no. On the other hand, there are folks who have all that stuff memorized and there's not much you can do about that...

 

[Aaron2]

The story, I threw my party up against soem Fire Giants with Anti-Magic Field cast on them by a 15th level Wizard. Any way, my players didn't know anything about the spell or how to defeat it. They ended up opening the Players Handbook when it wasn't there turn and read the spell, noted its effects and possible weaknesses and began to change there tactics.

If one of the player's characters is a high level wizard, I have no problem with them looking up spells. In general, however, I try not to tell my players exactly what spell they are dealing with. What if the spell was actually Mandar's Antimagic Shield* instead?


Aaron

*an obviously made up name but sometimes I change a spell's effect slightly to make things less sure for the players.

 

[Piratecat]

I handle it like this:

I let any PC make a knowledge (arcana) check at DC 15+spell lvl in order to know the basics of a spell, assuming that they can cast it in the first place. If it isn't on their spell list, the DC is more like 30+spell level.

 

[Victim]

How exactly do you cast AMF on someone? It only affects an area around the caster.

Besides that, as long as someone has a reasonable level of spellcraft, knowledge: arcana or religion, I have no problem with people looking up spells. Heck, they had to have some knowledge of the spell to know what to look up.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i don't have a problem with players looking up spells with a knowledge or spellcraft check

i look up spells all the time, i don't have them all commited to memory (yet )

 

[Nightfall]

I may have to steal that idea from you PC. Thanks! Btw, consider you and me buddies. I'm in the Player's Guide!

 

[Jasperak]

What a lovely problem, and an equally lovely solution...

First off, in my opinion any player that uses the rulebooks in a manner such as this is begging for trouble. By this I mean if they cannot cast the spell themselves they should not be looking it up in the book.

Second, I agree with the use of Spellcraft and knowledge checks in this case, although success does not allow the player to use the book. They should receive that info from the DM. Think about it, the DM uses a Prismatic Wall but changes the spells used to overcome each color. Does the DM tell the player to use the book or give the appropriate info.

Third, they really changed their tactics based on metagaming knowledge? Bad players, very bad players. IMHOOC

This is what I would do as DM. Penalize the players for using metagaming knowledge. A few combats later, have the party engage a force that is perfectly suited to capitalize on the party's weaknesses. Slam the party hard and make sure they know that the enemies opened up their Monster's Handbook. Make sure they know that it is not DM v. Players, but Characters v. Situations. If they want to use metagaming knowledge, then you have to as well. (I would start throwing spells, monsters, and some such that are not in any books that they own; make them up as well.)

Maybe twenty years ago their actions would fly, but this ain't your grandpappy's D&D anymore. I have had first hand experience with this from 2 different groups that continue to play 1e. We actually spent two sessions in one game looking through the books to find ways to defeat certain creatures, of course with boatloads of metagame knowledge. Killing Lolth in 2 rounds was not as fulfilling as one would think, and hearing about it 10 years later even less. Luckily I was able to convert one of the groups to 3e and that has been going well.

 

[Seule]

I handle it like this:

I let any PC make a knowledge (arcana) check at DC 15+spell lvl in order to know the basics of a spell, assuming that they can cast it in the first place. If it isn't on their spell list, the DC is more like 30+spell level.

This is pretty much exactly how we handle things. It works for monsters too, if you have skills that apply, like K: The Planes for Outsiders or Elementals. If you can make the check, you get info. Make it better, you get more info. For spells, if you have the spell, just look it up, otherwise check to see how much you know about it based on K: Arcana or Spellcraft.

--Seule

 

[Zappo]

At my table, that will get you nothing more than a cold gaze. I am more annoyed by the interruption of the game than the action itself. As for the metagaming aspect, I use customized spells fairly often, and they usually are modified versions of existing spells. Small changes in duration, area, numeric values or such, which the wizard introduced to better accomplish his objectives. Place metamagic on top of that, and you'll realize that looking up the details of a spell will cause you more trouble than it solves.