Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[Ciaran]

Really powerful items are going to be like the great works of art (Mona Lisa, David, etc.), they will be considered treasures that are HIGHLY unlikely to be sold.

From this, you'd almost think that Michelangelo and Da Vinci deposited all of their works directly at the local museum, while solemnly refusing to accept any monetary recompense for their efforts...

 

[Numion]

That's one possibility, sure. Another is development of a wizard culture that operates in secret, below the authorities radar (except those employed by the authorities) and avoids doing things like selling destructive items to any fool with some money. Another possibility is that the magic-users operate freely, and the resulting societies are so volatile than they frequently collapse, trashing the rule of law and easy, open markets...

Those would be the logical steps if the sale of magic items was banned because of the destructive nature. But thats not how I see most D&D worlds: wizards and sorcs operating in silence, fearing persecution.

A swords a terrible example. Try wands of fireball. How much of the countryside can you torch with a few of those and the will to use them?

But thats not a good reason for banning the sale of +3 swords. Thats a good argument for banning the sale of destructive items.

Personally I like how it's handled in Forgotten Realms. The Red Wizards sell low-powered items, but not items destructive in nature. I've let PCs make special deals with the Red Wizards to buy more powerful items .. but that usually includes a service for the Wizards.

Besides, I really like the reasoning for the trade in magic items. Very Austin Powers' dr. evil vs. number two.

Szass Tam: "We'll use our magical expertise to amass an undead and demon army and take over the world BWAHAHAHAAHAAAA"

(previous 6 attempts at same foiled by goodly countries)

Number Two: "Why not use our magical expertise to manufacture and sell magic items. We could make billions of legitimate money."

Szass Tam: "Why make billions when you can make ... millions ?"

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And that's my point: if you can buy and sell any magic item at a known list price, with no extra effort, you've got a modern, highly efficient, commodity market. And modern, highly efficient, commodity markets don't just happen -- at least not in the lawless lands where adventurers thrive.

As I see it, that is where the sale price comes in. If most of your wealth is measured in magic items and you apply the RAW, what you have is an inefficient market, but an established market nonetheless.

Whether you buy at 125% market price and sell at 75%, or at 100% & 50% (as suggested by the RAW) is just quibbling over details. How long it takes to successfully complete the transaction is also just a detail.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ah, but now you are relying on modern technologies to reach a large enough audience.

No you aren't. Sotheby's and Christie's have been in existence since the mid 1700s. Auction houses dealing in expensixe commodities predate them by a significant period of time. Trade groups that buy and sell expensive items date back through to the Roman era. In point of fact, the more difficult it is to gather information, the more likely you are to have auction houses and trade associations that deal in goods like this, since one of their major contributions is providing a venue from which information is disseminated.

If I were to drop you into LA, or London, or Paris right now, could you find a picasso for sale in the city without resorting to mas media? I doubt it, but this is essentially what the PCs want to be able to do.

I could probably find some equivalently expensive art item for sale within a day or two. A week at the most.

And yes, clearing houses for them would exists, but the volume of sales would be much less than it is today. You might have to bum around one of them for a year or two before the item you wanted came up for auction, assuming it ever does.

But you haven't noticed one of the most important elements of such a establishment: it is not only a place for sellers to advertise what they have for sale, but also for buyers to advertise what they are willing to buy. Making that item much more likely to come up for sale. As to the volume of items, that's going to depend on the price: the more expensive items will crop up less frequently, as will buyers for those items, but most magic items aren't +5 swords, and are far less expensive.

Really powerful items are going to be like the great works of art (Mona Lisa, David, etc.), they will be considered treasures that are HIGHLY unlikely to be sold.

And yet, these works of art were commissioned, and paid for, by wealthy men and families, in exchange for cash. Which kind of makes your assertion ring hollow.

As for selling bits of holy relics and indulgences, they cost the church nothing (or near nothing) to make (assuming the holy relics aren't real, and from what I've seen many of the one they sold weren't).

They were put forward to counter the idea that magic items are "too special" to sell. If we can sell remittances for sins (up to and including murder), and relics of Jesus' life and death, I don't think that there is a very good argument for saying a belt of giant strength is too special to sell.

The same can't be said for potions and other gear. The churches may need money, but they are hardly there to be a potion brewing factory for any wandering vagabond who can loot enough gp to afford them.

A 100% profit on potions and other minor magical gear? Sign me up, I'd love to be in a business where I could make 100% profit on a routine basis. I doubt that a church in a polytheistic world will have any reservations on getting into the trade as well, since the profit would be used for the benefit of the faith.

 

[Mallus]

But thats not how I see most D&D worlds: wizards and sorcs operating in silence, fearing persecution.

Its not the way I see them working either. Its too... logical. But I was objecting to was the idea that it was solely market forces that drove the existence/extent of the item trade. Security concerns would be another factor in any "state" stable enough to support open sale of magical stuff.

But thats not a good reason for banning the sale of +3 swords. Thats a good argument for banning the sale of destructive items.

You're right. It isn't a good reason. And I never said it was. You stated items had to be of "artifact level" before they constituted a serious public safety/security threat. I think that's dead wrong. You're the one who brought up +3 swords....

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't think anyone supports Position A (no magic market at all).

Did you actually read National Acrobat's post that started this thread? Or some of the responses?

 

[mmadsen]

A 100% profit on potions and other minor magical gear? Sign me up, I'd love to be in a business where I could make 100% profit on a routine basis.

The potion brewer isn't buying potions at the local Rite-Aid, marking them up 100%, then selling them on eBay. The potion brewer is equivalent to a Ph.D. chemist buying raw materials, applying his esoteric knowledge (labor), then selling the final product -- at a meagre 100% markup from his expenses.

He spent years at the Univesity, without financial aid or state subsidies, acquiring the skills to transform those raw materials into a useful potion. Then he had to spend a considerable amoun of money building his own alchemical lab. Then he had to buy the raw materials specific to one kind of potion. Now, when he has a potion, he has to find someone to sell it to.

 

[mmadsen]

Whether you buy at 125% market price and sell at 75%, or at 100% & 50% (as suggested by the RAW) is just quibbling over details. How long it takes to successfully complete the transaction is also just a detail.

I don't think that how long it takes is a minor detail. I don't think that whether the transaction goes through or not is a minor detail. I don't think that having to travel hundreds of miles to buy or sell is a minor detail.

If your established-but-inefficient market is the arms market in Somalia or Afghanistan, I don't think it's just an issue of pecuniary transaction costs. The non-pecuniary costs are substantial -- and full of dramatic potential.

 

[Storm Raven]

The potion brewer isn't buying potions at the local Rite-Aid, marking them up 100%, then selling them on eBay. The potion brewer is equivalent to a Ph.D. chemist buying raw materials, applying his esoteric knowledge (labor), then selling the final product -- at a meagre 100% markup from his expenses.

A Ph.D chemist? That's a bit extreme. Especially since adepts who are an explicitly NPC class described as hedge wizards, with limited training can easily make most of the common potions that PCs will want.

He spent years at the Univesity, without financial aid or state subsidies, acquiring the skills to transform those raw materials into a useful potion.

Really? Are you sure it was without financial aid or state subsidies? How about church sponsored training? Are you sure it was years at the University? The average wizard, druid or cleric starts his career at the age of 21, which seems just about right for someone who is finishing a seven year apprenticeship, which would have cost him almost nothing in terms of financial outlay.

Besides, those are sunk costs, and sunk costs are almost entirely irrelevant to whether or not someone now will sell something he can make.

Then he had to spend a considerable amoun of money building his own alchemical lab. Then he had to buy the raw materials specific to one kind of potion. Now, when he has a potion, he has to find someone to sell it to.

It seems to me like has a lot of expenses. A lot of debts to pay back. Are you arguing that someone with this sort of financial investment and debt load wouldn't be out trying to make that money back? It seems to me like clerics and wizards (given the economic conditions you describe with long years of study and training) are almost driven to market their services and ware just to pay for all of these expensive things you assume they have.

 

[mmadsen]

Did you actually read National Acrobat's post that started this thread? Or some of the responses?

Yes, and I believe that Position A (no magic market at all) is a straw man, an exaggeration of the point held by the "no magic market" side of this argument. The reasonable position is that there aren't Wiz Marts stocked with goods in every (or even any) town. I don't think that anyone has said that no one would ever, under any circumstances, sell any magic item, even under commission, even for a non-pecuniary price. They've said that you shouldn't just be able to scratch 50,000 gp off your character sheet and add "+5 longsword"; that's not the kind of thing you buy at the corner store.

I also believe that Position B (Wiz Mart on every corner) is a straw man, an exaggeration of the point held by the "pro magic market" side of this argument -- but I still feel that modern, efficient, commodity markets (a) don't make much sense for items of power in a lawless world, and (b) don't fit the feel many (but not all) people want in their fantasy world.