Playing 2e, 3e, and 4e at the same time: Observations

[Dannyalcatraz]

Listen guys, I'm making these three claims.
<snip>

There is a world of difference between being a tough DM and being a killer DM. By it's very nature, the position of DM has the power to do a TPK every round of game time. Good DMs don't use it- they let the parties do it to themselves.

The various "resets" in D&D exist partly because they show up in some of the source material that inspired the game's creation, but also as a bit of a safety net so that PCs built up over time have a safety net.

In written fiction, this is often replaced by "plot protection."

 

[S'mon]

You might like to put years of work into a campaign and just simply toss it away from a bad couple of rolls with dice.

Not tossed away. Completed.

If a campaign has truly been going for years of weekly play, chances are the PC is so high level their 'random' death is appropriately epic, anyway. Eg in my AD&D campaigns, the PCs who have made deity level before perishing:

Mirv Sheelon, God of Panthers & Assassins - slain by the Dark Goddess Hel while assaulting her Tower of Death.

Mortis Deathlord (ne Storrax Brightside), Chaos demigod - slain by his boss, Demon King Graz'zt, for breaching the Ward Pact Graz'zt has with Thrin (another deity PC, still alive).

Thor Sunneson, Norse hero-deity - slain by Vanya, goddess of the Thyatian Empire, while attempting to assassinate the Thyatian imperial family.

All those PCs had years of play and many epic adventures behind them when they met their demise. None of that was negated by the end of their tales.

 

[S'mon]

ferratus, I will take my PCs into any adventure my DMs are running, and I care very deeply about my PCs.

Not me - I'm more a "Frakk this, I'm outta here!" kind of player - certainly that would be my reaction to the DM trying to push a beloved PC into the Tomb of Horrors. Sure I might survive - but I wouldn't care to find out.

Likewise when I'm DMing, my players are free to have their characters bug out of an undesired adventure - there may be consequences, but I normally avoid "The World Will End" plots. As DM I like having the occasional "The One That Got Away" dungeon/adventure/monster in there, I think it enriches the milieu - just as the occasional dead PC or party does, too.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think it enriches the milieu - just as the occasional dead PC or party does, too

Nature does require fertilizer. SOMEbody has to feed the trees.

 

[Lanefan]

"You wake in the inn up next to a bodak" is not a game I am interested in!

Maybe not, and fair enough; but the drink-up the previous night that led to such a situation would have been something to behold indeed!

As for Tomb of Horrors, I and some others went though it using 6 of the pre-gens in the module; of those 2 died and 1 lost its mind - but we got through!


Lan-"the bodak was cute at 2 o'clock this morning, I swear"-efan

 

[Pentius]

Not tossed away. Completed.

If a campaign has truly been going for years of weekly play, chances are the PC is so high level their 'random' death is appropriately epic, anyway. Eg in my AD&D campaigns, the PCs who have made deity level before perishing:

Mirv Sheelon, God of Panthers & Assassins - slain by the Dark Goddess Hel while assaulting her Tower of Death.

Mortis Deathlord (ne Storrax Brightside), Chaos demigod - slain by his boss, Demon King Graz'zt, for breaching the Ward Pact Graz'zt has with Thrin (another deity PC, still alive).

Thor Sunneson, Norse hero-deity - slain by Vanya, goddess of the Thyatian Empire, while attempting to assassinate the Thyatian imperial family.

All those PCs had years of play and many epic adventures behind them when they met their demise. None of that was negated by the end of their tales.

I'm fairly sure I understand Ferratus here(jump in and correct me if I'm wrong)
and these deaths you've mentioned simply aren't what he's talking about. "My character fell in the course of action to a worthy foe." isn't throwing it away. On the other hand, "We were tapping every inch of the ground before us with a 10' pole, as per usual, and triggered a trap that dropped acid on the entire corridor. My character failed his save." is. So is, "I was listening at the door, as per usual, and Bam! Ear Seekers. Character dead."

Character death in epic circumstances is fine. Save or Die effects aren't generally limited to epic opponents, though. Especially in AD&D, you could be pushed into save or die pretty much anytime the DM wanted, from anything from a truly epic adversary, to your breakfast.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

You might like to put years of work into a campaign and just simply toss it away from a bad couple of rolls with dice. Fine. I'll admit that some like killer dungeon crawls and loss of characters from random chance.

Why must the campaign end? The story continues, different characters just come to the forefront. As an example, last week, we came across a room with a throne that detected as evil. Unbeknownst to us, it was actually a variant of a magic jar. We released a very high level mage who cast a death spell. Our 5th level characters weren't ready for that. The (ex) paladin died, along with his cleric henchman. The fighter died, the mage died. The gnome illusionist died. The evil magic user made off in our druids body, the druid managed to take over the dead gnomes body, so he is still in play. Out of six characters, two henchmen, and an animal companion, only three survived - the monk, the cleric/mu (me) and the druid, who is now in the body of a gnome (a fate worse than death). We had a blast, and the campaign continues as before.

 

[the Jester]

You might like to put years of work into a campaign and just simply toss it away from a bad couple of rolls with dice.

Has anyone advocated this, even once, in this thread?

I think you're conflating a particular party of adventurers with the campaign, which I realize is very common these days, but for games like I'm talking about they absolutely are two very different things.

I understand your point. I even agree that save or die, used poorly, cranks the arbitrary dial up a great deal.

But I think you are not seeing that there is a (quite large) middle ground between "everyone dies at random" and "the party must have certain resources available".

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"You wake in the inn up next to a bodak" is not a game I am interested in!

Woke up in the mornin'
Bodak in my bed
Woke up in the mornin'
Bodak in my bed

I guess I drank so much last night
That I slept with the livin' dead!

I got the necrohorny lager-goggle blues...

 

[BryonD]

Now you guys might like to play to a game where an overarching story arc isn't important. Fine, I'll agree that is a valid style of play.

You might like to put years of work into a campaign and just simply toss it away from a bad couple of rolls with dice. Fine. I'll admit that some like killer dungeon crawls and loss of characters from random chance.

You've memorized every bit of minutae from the rules for every counter to common save or die effects, and have learned several tricks to avoid taking save or die rolls except on rare occassions. Fine. I'll accept that you find that kind of 10-foot pole style of dungeon exploration part and parcel of how you play D&D.

But my 3 points that I have made are true as well.

I use and love SoD.
I've played numerous campaigns, generally up to 12 - 15th level.

I hate the "10-foot pole style of dungeon exploration" and it doesn't happen in my games.

I love overarching story arcs. (despite the awkward phrase there)
TPKs have happened.
Years of work have been invested. It has never been "tossed away".


I know a lot of other people have similar experiences to mine.
You are clearly insistent that your experience is mandatory as being everyone else's experience.
THAT is your huge error right there.
The conversation breaks down there and doesn't look likely to improve.
But it doesn't matter. Our games will continue to be what they are regardless of what you insist they must be or may not be.