Playing it up - bad idea?
- Thread starter Queen_Dopplepopolis
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Queen_Dopplepopolis
First Post
Based on the fact that he's threatening to dock my cha, I'd say it's not a favorites thing.schnee said:
We've been gaming together for a long time and we tend to do it very well, though.
BSF
Explorer
Huh. Well, this is BS. I doubt people would argue that there haven't been charismatic, yet somewhat unpleasant, folks throughout history. Yet the other players have tried to make a stereotype out of your PC and are now complaining because you are living up to it.
In my experience, the other players around the table are not very enthusiastic to see a high Cha character played as overly assertive. They want them to be likable and smiling happy people holding hands. Let's face it, there are far more people out there with high Cha that lead because they project such self-assurance that others can't help but to want to follow their lead. One perfectly legitimate way to project Cha is to have somebody that is outwardly self-assured and self-confident. (Regardless of what they feel internally, this is how they appear to others.) These people get away with making snide comments and running rough shod over everyone else because people are willing to forgive them these "flaws". Whether that is because the charismatic individual must surely be right, or is so strong a leader that such flaws can be overlooked, or just because you don't want to be the next target of the individuals scathing comments is hardly relevant. The point is that many, many people will overlook the disadvantages of an overbearing personality because of the advantages. They are charismatic and when you need something done by somebody else, the people with leadership qualities make sure it gets done.
There are many ways to play a high Cha. To talk of docking your score when you play one that is less than pleasant is certainly your DM's perogative, but that doesn't mean it is a strong reflection on how high Cha could be portrayed.
Your group wanted to stereotype your PC. You responded by filling that stereotype. They don't like it. Tell them to ease off the bitch comments and you will stop playing one. But do it nicely.
BTW - As somebody that plays a character with a 23 Cha, I feel your distress. My character is eventually going to unite most of the good peoples of the world to fight evil. He will do that through any means at his disposal. He knows he is right. Sometimes that assurance bleeds over in ways that his fellow PCs don't necessarily like.
In my experience, the other players around the table are not very enthusiastic to see a high Cha character played as overly assertive. They want them to be likable and smiling happy people holding hands. Let's face it, there are far more people out there with high Cha that lead because they project such self-assurance that others can't help but to want to follow their lead. One perfectly legitimate way to project Cha is to have somebody that is outwardly self-assured and self-confident. (Regardless of what they feel internally, this is how they appear to others.) These people get away with making snide comments and running rough shod over everyone else because people are willing to forgive them these "flaws". Whether that is because the charismatic individual must surely be right, or is so strong a leader that such flaws can be overlooked, or just because you don't want to be the next target of the individuals scathing comments is hardly relevant. The point is that many, many people will overlook the disadvantages of an overbearing personality because of the advantages. They are charismatic and when you need something done by somebody else, the people with leadership qualities make sure it gets done.
There are many ways to play a high Cha. To talk of docking your score when you play one that is less than pleasant is certainly your DM's perogative, but that doesn't mean it is a strong reflection on how high Cha could be portrayed.
Your group wanted to stereotype your PC. You responded by filling that stereotype. They don't like it. Tell them to ease off the bitch comments and you will stop playing one. But do it nicely.
BTW - As somebody that plays a character with a 23 Cha, I feel your distress. My character is eventually going to unite most of the good peoples of the world to fight evil. He will do that through any means at his disposal. He knows he is right. Sometimes that assurance bleeds over in ways that his fellow PCs don't necessarily like.
BSF
Explorer
Hypersmurf said:
3.5 SRD said:
Why do so many people focus on the "physical attractiveness" aspect of Charisma. It drives me nuts. I can think of plenty of physically unattractive people that had a heck of a lot of Charisma. Churchill is one good example.
Yes, some charismatic people are also pretty. Many are not particularly fetching. Some pretty people are charismatic, but not all of them. Meh! Meh, I say!
DnD should have gone the Paranoia route and called it Chutzpah.
Queen_Dopplepopolis
First Post
Maybe it has something to do with being a woman? Do men experience the Cha must be good looking-ness thing?BardStephenFox said:
Queen_Dopplepopolis
First Post
It's one of my personal favorite character concepts. Sneak attack AND smite evil!FireLance said:
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
Actually, the situation sort of makes sense, although the other players' and DM's view on Charisma doesn't. Here's how it looks to me:
The other players thought your PC was unpleasant and, presumably, either overly sarcastic or bossy (or both). Hence, that high Charisma, since in their (flawed) perspective it didn't come from her personality, had to be based purely on appearance. Many groups I've encountered play Cha this way - since it represents a combination of good looks and charm, it must mean that one is extremely high if the other isn't. Since they found your character anything but charming, they assumed she was good looking instead. It's not a male/female thing, it's a pleasant/unpleasant thing.
Now, because they got this impression and expressed it, clearly annoying you in the process since it's not what you wanted from the character, you decided to play it up. Fair enough.
But remember: they already thought your PC was a bossy, snippy witch, so when you played it up more, it made her, in their eyes, an over the top, stereotypical version thereof. Maybe they're right, maybe you're right, but either way, that's their perception.
Unfortunately, they and the DM apparently think that, since your PC's personality has gotten more unpleasant (= less charasmatic, to their eyes), and she presumably hasn't spontaneously gotten better looking, then her overall Cha must have gone down.
Now, what they're missing is the 'third element' of the Cha score: strong sense of self and assertiveness. The more confident, domineering and perhaps even unpleasant a character becomes, the higher the Cha score goes because they simply enforce their strong wills on others. A mind flayer is charismatic, not because it's good looking to human eyes (one hopes
), not because it's a charming host, but because it exudes inhuman, unnatural self-assurance.
Call it confidence, comeliness and charm - when charm goes down, if Cha remains the same and comeliness doesn't change, confidence must be going up.
Personally, I'd go back to playing your character the way you orginally played her, which although not exactly one that the other players would want to hang out with, was obviously not "beyond the pale" like the way you started playing her to live up to the perceptions they already had.
The other players thought your PC was unpleasant and, presumably, either overly sarcastic or bossy (or both). Hence, that high Charisma, since in their (flawed) perspective it didn't come from her personality, had to be based purely on appearance. Many groups I've encountered play Cha this way - since it represents a combination of good looks and charm, it must mean that one is extremely high if the other isn't. Since they found your character anything but charming, they assumed she was good looking instead. It's not a male/female thing, it's a pleasant/unpleasant thing.
Now, because they got this impression and expressed it, clearly annoying you in the process since it's not what you wanted from the character, you decided to play it up. Fair enough.
But remember: they already thought your PC was a bossy, snippy witch, so when you played it up more, it made her, in their eyes, an over the top, stereotypical version thereof. Maybe they're right, maybe you're right, but either way, that's their perception.
Unfortunately, they and the DM apparently think that, since your PC's personality has gotten more unpleasant (= less charasmatic, to their eyes), and she presumably hasn't spontaneously gotten better looking, then her overall Cha must have gone down.
Now, what they're missing is the 'third element' of the Cha score: strong sense of self and assertiveness. The more confident, domineering and perhaps even unpleasant a character becomes, the higher the Cha score goes because they simply enforce their strong wills on others. A mind flayer is charismatic, not because it's good looking to human eyes (one hopes
), not because it's a charming host, but because it exudes inhuman, unnatural self-assurance.Call it confidence, comeliness and charm - when charm goes down, if Cha remains the same and comeliness doesn't change, confidence must be going up.
Personally, I'd go back to playing your character the way you orginally played her, which although not exactly one that the other players would want to hang out with, was obviously not "beyond the pale" like the way you started playing her to live up to the perceptions they already had.
Here's the thing, Charisma isn't about how easy you are to get along with. It's about force of personality. There are multiple ways to motivate people to agree with you or do what you want. A person with high charisma is good at one or more of the methods.
Being nice and pleasant is one way to do the trick. But so is humiliation. So is the ability to instill fear. All a high charisma says is that people will listen to you, and they will tend to do what you want. But there are many ways to skin the cat.
It is possible that different people have different concepts of the character. To dispel that, you need to get on the same page about the stats and how they operate.
I don't have context, but being a "bitch to deal with" has multiple meanings. It can mean that you are rude and nasty. It can also mean that you simply make life difficult by not going along with everyone else, even if you are polite about it. I don't know for sure what they meant. You want to make sure that you were reacting to the right meaning.
Your DM would be wrong to dock your Charisma score. He has two possibilities - he can assign a circumstance penalty due to your inappropriate delivery, or he can decide that due to your charisma score, people still do what you want, because they figure you'll be a holy terror if they don't.
Being nice and pleasant is one way to do the trick. But so is humiliation. So is the ability to instill fear. All a high charisma says is that people will listen to you, and they will tend to do what you want. But there are many ways to skin the cat.
It is possible that different people have different concepts of the character. To dispel that, you need to get on the same page about the stats and how they operate.
I don't have context, but being a "bitch to deal with" has multiple meanings. It can mean that you are rude and nasty. It can also mean that you simply make life difficult by not going along with everyone else, even if you are polite about it. I don't know for sure what they meant. You want to make sure that you were reacting to the right meaning.
Your DM would be wrong to dock your Charisma score. He has two possibilities - he can assign a circumstance penalty due to your inappropriate delivery, or he can decide that due to your charisma score, people still do what you want, because they figure you'll be a holy terror if they don't.
Last edited:
Jhamin
First Post
Ok, lets look at this more broadly.
If you were playing an uneducated peasent, would your DM dock you your 18 Int?
If you didn't constantly carry around heavy things, would you lose your 18 Str?
CHA is a statistic, with just as many game effects as any other. Any GM who arbitrarily docks you on any stat is pretty harsh.
If you were playing an uneducated peasent, would your DM dock you your 18 Int?
If you didn't constantly carry around heavy things, would you lose your 18 Str?
CHA is a statistic, with just as many game effects as any other. Any GM who arbitrarily docks you on any stat is pretty harsh.
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