Playing Monks

[Gizzard]

> I really think that Spring Attack is overrated for a monk.

Interesting. I wonder what people think the optimum Feat path is for the Monk. Basically, if you want Spring Attack at level 6 you have 3 feats already chosen for you. But if you go the Weapon Finesse route at level 3, you have a lot more room to experiment.

I chose Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative at first level for flavor reasons -- I wanted my Monk to feel fast and nimble. At level 3 I took Dodge to move towards Spring Attack at level 9. I'd suggest (from experience) that this is not the optimal path.

So what is an optimal path? I suppose this depends on your race; with Humans you get an extra Feat, with Half-Orcs you get Darkvision (which increases the utility of Hide & Move Silent), and I'm sure there is some race with a DEX or WIS bonus. So how do you optimize your Monk by level 6?

(Caveat 2: Our DM does not like to use Feats outside the Core Rules. How would you optimize the vanilla Monk?)

 

[333 Dave]

I'd just like to say the funnest monk I've ever played was a Halfling Monk with a whole lotta shuriken and a plan to gain a few levels of rogue. Then again, we didn't get into much combat in that regrettably short campaign...

 

[BadMojo]

> (Caveat 2: Our DM does not like to use Feats outside the Core Rules. How would you optimize the vanilla Monk?)

That's unfortunate, because Oriental Adventures really opened up the Monk class for me. Plenty of cool feats that would work well with a Monk, the ability swapping rule, additional weapons.

Just based on the core rules, you could go with Expertise or Power Attack depending on your stats.

Myself, I'm concentrating on throws and pressure point strike feats for my human monk. I took Dodge & Improved Init at first level, Weapon Finesse: Unarmed at second level and will probably go with Combat Reflexes at 6th.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

> So how do you optimize your Monk by level 6?

(Caveat 2: Our DM does not like to use Feats outside the Core Rules. How would you optimize the vanilla Monk?)

Using just the big three core rulebooks with a single class monk? Well, the only feats a monk would ever conceivably take:

Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, (Mobility, Spring Attack), Endurance, Expertise, (Imp. Disarm), Great Fortitude, Imp. Critical, Imp. Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, MWP, PBS, (FS, PS, RS), Power Attack (Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Great Cleave), Quick Draw, Skill Focus, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus

Optimizations:

A) High Dex/Wis
B) High Str/Con

1) Unarmed
2) Monk Weapon
3) Javelin
4) Projectile Weapon
5) Reach Weapon

A1, A2 = Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Imp. Disarm. (The last two with UA only if the Double-Handed Disarm from the Sword and Fist is in effect.)

B1, B2 = Power Attack, Cleave, Imp. Bull Rush, Great Cleave, Expertise, Imp. Disarm. (The last two with UA only if the Double-Handed Disarm from the Sword and Fist is in effect.)

A3, B3 = Quick Draw, PBS, RS, PS, FS

A4 = MWP (Composite Bow), PBS, RS, PS

A5, B5 = MWP (Glaive), Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Imp. Disarm
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I have actually found that with A1 and A2, I would rather have Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Leadership, Blind-Fight, or Weapon Focus than the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack route.

A4 is only available if the character has access to a GMW spell.

Let's just say that B5 is really neat, as monks gain Imp. Trip as a free feat at 6th level and the monk can still attack with the normal progression of his BAB with his UA (feet).
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Obviously, monks with OA rules are more interesting than monks without. But the vanilla monk doesn't have to be high Dex/Wis, Spring Attack monk just to be effective.
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333 Dave---
I'd just like to say the funnest monk I've ever played was a Halfling Monk with a whole lotta shuriken and a plan to gain a few levels of rogue.

You do realize that Sneak Attack only applies to the first shuriken thrown in the round, right?

 

[Hejdun]

And a point or two of save DC isn't really going to make much difference, as the Stunning Fist isn't that great an ability. (I haven't seen the 3rd Ed QP in action yet ...) At low levels, you don't get enough uses per day and don't hit often enough; and by the time you get high enough level to rain some SF attacks down with impunity, the Fort saves of your typical opponents have outstripped your DC increase from your level.

I second this. I played a monk from level 5 to 9, and used my stunning fist almost always. I had a high wisdom too, 18, but stunning fist never worked. In the span of about 30 fights, I stunned exactly...

no one.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Why Stunning Fist is neat:

Ki Straps 5,000 gp (+5 to stunning fist DCs, from the Sword and Fist)

So at 4th level you could buy one (5,400gp) if you're lucky, which most PCs aren't, so let's go with 8th level (27,000gp).

An 18 Wis, 8th level Monk would have a 23 DC (10+4+4+5)

Add in a couple points to Wisdom from ability increases (+2 Wis) and a Periapt of Wisdom (+2, 4000gp), and you have yourself a DC 25.

Add in Weapon Finesse (UA), Extra Stunning Attacks, and Pain Touch and you will rock. (Blind-Fight and Blind-Sight for later).

 

[Gizzard]

> In the span of about 30 fights, I stunned exactly...no one.

I'm slightly ahead of this; though not by much. With 18 WIS at level 5 my Stun DC is an unimpressive 15. I tried to stun a Troll 3 times last game and failed every single time. Including the time he rolled a 4 as a save. :-( Big monster = good CON = huge fortitude save. Once again, a Monk is not really meant to fight a Troll head-to-head, so its not to surprising; I suppose we should concentrate more on the skinny guys in the pointy hats.

> Concrete Buddha on Monk optimizations

Theres a lot of material there; I'll have to sort through it. Here are some initial thoughts:

> Expertise

Dratted Expertise and its INT 13 requirement. By the time I spread my points between DEX/WIS/STR/CON I just cant come up with a 13+ to put in INT. But Expertise is pretty far up the ladder in all the Feat chains listed; probably doesnt matter that much anyway.

> B) High Str/Con .... Power Attack, Cleave, Imp. Bull Rush, Great Cleave

And interesting idea, but not so Monklike I think. If I went down this route, I'd be much more akin to a Fighter (and probably better off being one due to the AC and HP issues.) My characters stats (for example) are STR 15, DEX 17, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 9. If I re-arrange them to STR 17, DEX 15, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 9 I start with a rather Wizardly AC13, although good HPs (11) and fair attack (unarmed +3 for d6+3, flurry +1/+1 for d6+3). Other than the flurry, I feel like just a weak Fighter. Maybe he catches up as time goes by, but I am guessing not.

> A5, B5 = MWP (Glaive), Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Imp. Disarm

This one looks like a lot of fun. Possibly very character-ful as well. It makes me feel that some polearm should have been a Monk weapon to represent that Oriental polearm (whose name I forget.)

> A1, A2 = Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

So this is the main tree with Weapon Finesse happening at level 3 and Spring Attack happening either at 6 or 9 depending on whether you get the extra feat for being Human.

 

[Christian]

I'm slightly ahead of this; though not by much. With 18 WIS at level 5 my Stun DC is an unimpressive 15. I tried to stun a Troll 3 times last game and failed every single time. Including the time he rolled a 4 as a save.

I get 16 for your Stun DC. But point well made, in any case.

I have to admit, my one successful stun came close to saving the party's bacon. (We ended up losing the fight anyway & getting captured-but the stunning fist gave us a chance!) I charged up with my improved move rate, tumbling past & through the front-line grunt fighters, and whacked the spellcaster who was cowering in the back. I couldn't take him down with one shot-but he missed his Fort save and lost his turn, preventing him from doing who-knows-what hideous things to the group ...

I missed him the next turn, and he went ahead and did hideous things to me, instead. But things were looking surprisingly good for a round or two.

 

[Don21584]

I never had a real problem Stunning enemies. But my Monk was started at a little higher level (9th). Stunning was probably what saved me from death when I grappled a Red Wizard who had just summoned a Large zombie. I just kept doing subdual damage on him until he fell (we wanted to question him, but he ended up dying anyway, probably from when his zombie attacked me and some of the damage hit him as well).
I also noticed that for a while, Flurry is not much of a help hitting. But when you go up more levels it does get better, much better.
I rolled good, but my stats, before level point modifiers were
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 17
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 10

At for 4th and 8th, I put those points into Wis, and I recently made 12th and I put that into Con.
If I had the prereq for Expertise, I would definitely choose that as a feat, because I'm usually high up for init, so I'd be going before my enemies.

 

[Gizzard]

> I get 16 for your Stun DC.

Hmmm, now that I look at it, I do too. PCGen says "Stunning Attack DC(15)", but I get DC10+(5/2)+4 = DC16. (If this were true, I believe I would have stunned the Troll. Darn PCGen!)