D&D 5E Playing non-healer clerics

[aco175]

Why do you view it as selfish to be a cleric who doesn't focus on healing?

I'm not sure most people here, or at least me, are complaining that a cleric should be focused on healing. They should have healing and use it to help the party. Some have said that they have a few healing words to pick you up when you fall and a raise dead if needed. That is likely enough to satisfy most other players without saying to them that they need to take magic initiate at 4th level instead of a feat that helps you contribute to the party better. The rest mechanic and other healing that floats around should be able to take up the rest in 5e.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I'm not sure most people here, or at least me, are complaining that a cleric should be focused on healing. They should have healing and use it to help the party. Some have said that they have a few healing words to pick you up when you fall and a raise dead if needed. That is likely enough to satisfy most other players without saying to them that they need to take magic initiate at 4th level instead of a feat that helps you contribute to the party better. The rest mechanic and other healing that floats around should be able to take up the rest in 5e.

I can only speak for my table in that everyone plays the character they feel like playing, regardless of which "jobs" are filled in the party and which are vacant.

We once had a long standing party with two clerics and a paladin of Torm and a rogue (3.X). There was zero arcane magic in the mix. This also happens to be the golden age of our table with the characters we enjoyed the most.

Modern D&D is designed so that it works without any particular class present. If Sue wants to play her cleric in a fighter style role, then her table needs to respect that decision and learn to play a game without healing spells (it works in 5e) OR the players who want magical healing can gain the power through multiclassing, feats, or items.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Make sure there is still a primary healer in the group.
Usually not a big problem

 

[CreamCloud0]

Why do you view it as selfish to be a cleric who doesn't focus on healing? If I want to play a character who bashes skulls why is it selfish to build that character with a cleric chassis instead of a barbarian?

Either some other player can play a healing character or nobody can play one and the party will just have to be more careful or rest more often.

isn't the debated issue here not that of 'a cleric that doesn't focus on healing' but 'a cleric that actively refuses to engage in a central part of their class's design, at all, the bit of their class design oriented on supporting the other players', seeing as your players are meant to be part of a TEAM this may rub the rest of your co-players the wrong way.

 

[ECMO3]

I absolutely should. If you're in a D&D party with a wizard who refuses to use utility spells because they take up slots they could be using for direct damage, yes, you have every right to be annoyed. All players should strive to be as useful to the party as they can be. That is a reasonable expectation.

Nobody has made any demands or said anything about making demands.

So you are a wizard, you just made level 5 and you want to get Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern and I say no you can't. A wizard has utility available so you have to take Lemund's Hut and Speak With Dead, and when you make 6th level you need to pick up Fly and catnap. It doesn't matteer that you want to take Fireball or that HP is more useful to the party than those will be. You chose a class that has utility available so you have to take it. That is your role because that is what I want your role to be.

To use the exact quote from above, if the Wizard won't take LTH and SWD then he should "Find a different game, where [Wizards] don't get [Utility Spells]." You should not be allowed to take Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern if you play a wizard

This is the exact same thing as having my Cleric get Spirit Guardians and Spirit Shroud instead of Aura of Vitality and Mass Healing Word.

Clerics have access to healing magic for free. Engaging this class feature costs you literally nothing. How is that the same as requiring a PC of a different class to take a feat to get the same utility?

Preparing spells and using slots is not free. Certain Cleric subclasses do have healing magic for free and the people playing those are going to heal. Other classes do not and need to both prepare and use slots to cast healing magic. Claiming they have it for free is like saying Wizards have utility spells for free.

Sure, as evidenced by some of the more martially focused cleric subclasses losing access to healing spells, oh no wait.

Evocation Wizards don't lose access to utility spells but it is unreasonable to expect them to fill their book with utility spells instead of blasting spells. Same with Enchantment, Illusion and Abjuration schools.

Someone who doesn't tolerate selfish behavior at my table, mostly.

It is selfish to tell or expect another player to play a certain way based on how you want the class should be played. It is reasonable to expect all players to contribute, it is selfish and unreasonable to expect them to contribute in a specific fashion that suits you.

 

[ECMO3]

Make sure there is still a primary healer in the group.
Usually not a big problem

Most games I play are with 3-4 PCs. That is not enough to have someone who concentrates on one thing.

More than half of those groups have no Paladin, Cleric or Druid at all and while all of the groups have some minor healing through things like second wind, it is rare that there is a primary healer or a character of any class who's main job it is to heal or "top up" others.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Nobody needs to do anything at our table. If you want to be a paladin that never smites, a cleric and never heal or a melee wizard, then go ahead.

It's up to the party to form a cohesive unit that cooperates during Session Zero. This unit can have flaws (such as no healer). And after that it's up to the DM to design matching and appropriate challenges.

 

[ECMO3]

isn't the debated issue here not that of 'a cleric that doesn't focus on healing' but 'a cleric that actively refuses to engage in a central part of their class's design, at all, the bit of their class design oriented on supporting the other players', seeing as your players are meant to be part of a TEAM this may rub the rest of your co-players the wrong way.

That is not how I would characterize it.

Healing is a central part of the Paladin class design due to Lay on Hands, but I do not think it is a central part of the Cleric class design. Some Cleric subclasses yes, but not the class as a whole because it is mechanically possible, and in fact thematically encouraged, to build a very effective cleric with no healing at all. IMO suggesting it is part of the class design is a stereotype that harkens back to 2E.

A Cleric with a good combat-oriented subclass who never, ever heals or refuses to heal at all for thematic reasons (and that is not me) can still generally contribute more to a party more than some Warlocks and Fighters and most Barbarians and Monks can.

If there is a spot open in a party and I choose to play a Cleric I can generally contribute more to the "team" than many PCs from those classes would and I can do it without using any healing at all. Are monks not team players because they chose to play a weak class and they could contribute more by picking a different class?

 

[James Gasik]

So you are a wizard, you just made level 5 and you want to get Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern and I say no you can't. A wizard has utility available so you have to take Lemund's Hut and Speak With Dead, and when you make 6th level you need to pick up Fly and catnap. It doesn't matteer that you want to take Fireball or that HP is more useful to the party than those will be. You chose a class that has utility available so you have to take it. That is your role because that is what I want your role to be.

To use the exact quote from above, if the Wizard won't take LTH and SWD then he should "Find a different game, where [Wizards] don't get [Utility Spells]." You should not be allowed to take Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern if you play a wizard

This is the exact same thing as having my Cleric get Spirit Guardians and Spirit Shroud instead of Aura of Vitality and Mass Healing Word.



Preparing spells and using slots is not free. Certain Cleric subclasses do have healing magic for free and the people playing those are going to heal. Other classes do not and need to both prepare and use slots to cast healing magic. Claiming they have it for free is like saying Wizards have utility spells for free.



Evocation Wizards don't lose access to utility spells but it is unreasonable to expect them to fill their book with utility spells instead of blasting spells. Same with Enchantment, Illusion and Abjuration schools.



It is selfish to tell or expect another player to play a certain way based on how you want the class should be played. It is reasonable to expect all players to contribute, it is selfish and unreasonable to expect them to contribute in a specific fashion that suits you.

There is a slight difference in the case of the Wizard and the Cleric in this scenario I just wanted to point out. The Cleric always has the option to prepare a healing spell, because they have access to their entire spell list. The Wizard has a limited pool of spells to choose from, unless they are given opportunities to spend time and gold to add spells to their book. If a Wizard takes, as in your example, fireball and hypnotic pattern, and the party would rather have them able to cast different spells, there's an opportunity cost there that doesn't exist with the Cleric.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

isn't the debated issue here not that of 'a cleric that doesn't focus on healing' but 'a cleric that actively refuses to engage in a central part of their class's design, at all, the bit of their class design oriented on supporting the other players', seeing as your players are meant to be part of a TEAM this may rub the rest of your co-players the wrong way.

How many "Clerics that will never ever cast a single healing spell on a party member" are there in the wild and is that enough to devote a thread to?

I have had clerics who RARELY healed at my table. I played one in 3.x. That doesn't mean I wouldn't occasionally use a healing spell to save a dying comrade, it just meant that it was as much my "job" to do so as much as it was the other characters with healing potions.

And if someone wanted to say a cleric of the God of Natural Death who was antithetical to magical healing, then the other players have to keep that in mind during gameplay.