D&D 5E playtest 18th level PC vs town...lFqW reborn... or not

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, I was asked to fork this thread.

in the thread: Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...h-8th-and-9th-level-spell/page6#ixzz3K3UW5zzU

Can you guys delete you posts and start your own thread? Maybe provide a link to it as an example?

edit: And frankly, if you want to make it interesting, the party should be 4 characters, let actual players make the characters, and see how low level the players can be and still win. Notice I said win, not kill everyone. It is foolish to think most high level PCs are so stupid as to assume the townsfolk would attack them for no reason, when most of the townsfolk would get slaughtered in the process.

[sblock=my posts]

OK, so I am putting together a scenario with pregen PCs... all the players know is that it is to test a crazy scenario I found on the internet, and it will be high level characters...

SO my scenario... take the Mind flayer and a town... the flayer boosted his mind control and will be attacking the PCs mid long rest...

I have 3 players. So I have to choose my pregens carefully, I need 1 full caster, 1 no caster, and 1 inbetween, but I'm not sure what yet.

I figure population 550 people, 65 of them are old enough or sick enough not to matter, 35 of them 'made there save' so 450 controlled usable targets.

right off the bat 365 of them are commoners (MMpg345) fluff wise some of these are women and children...

town guard/milita 20 guards (MM pg347) 2 Knights (MMpg347), 8 Veterans (MMpg 350), 4 scouts (MMpg 349), 1 gladiator (MMpg 346)

10 Nobles (MM pg348) refluffed as merchents

each of those merchants have an ally/employee so 4 Guards, 3 Veterans, 1 Thug (MMpg 350), 1 gladiator, 1 scout,

a thieves guild/ gang about 25 strong... 3 spys, 1 assassin, 7 thugs, 13 bandits (MMpg 343),1 Bandit Captain (MMpg 342)

A local mage (MMpg 347)
1 priest (MMpg348) with 3 Acolytes (MMpg 342)


The set up is simple, the PCs are attacked with no warning... they need to figure out it's the mind flayer that escaped 3 levels ago looking for revenge. They have to not only survive the town, but track the flayer...

365 commoners (MMpg345) cr 0 10xp (3650xp)
24 guards (MM pg347) cr 1/8 25xp (600xp)
2 Knights (MMpg347) cr 3 700xp (1400xp)
11 Veterans (MMpg 350) cr3 700xp (7700xp)
5 scouts (MMpg 349) cr 1/2 100xp (500xp)
2 gladiator (MMpg 346) cr 5 1,800xp (3600xp)
10 Nobles (MM pg348) cr 1/8 25xp (250xp)
8 Thug (MMpg 350) cr1/2 100xp (800xp)
3 spys MMpg 349) cr1 200xp (600xp)
1 assassin (MMpg 343) cr 8 3900xp (3900xp)
13 bandits (MMpg 343) cr 1/8 25xp (325xp)
1 Bandit Captain (MMpg 342) cr 2 450xp (450xp)
1 mage (MMpg 347) cr 6 2300xp (2300xp)
1 priest (MMpg348) cr 2 450 xp (450xp)
3 Acolytes (MMpg 342) cr 1/4 50xp (150xp)

so grand total is 26,675xp or 8,891.7 xp per player... I would round that off to 9k if I were running this as an ongoing...
and that darn assassin is worth more then all the commoners together...

I also am spiceing it up by adding 7 magic items to the town... 1 veteran has a +1 longsword, and another has Adamantine splint armor, One of the knights has a figurine of wondrous power horse, one of the Nobles has both a +1 weapon and a ring of protection, 1 of the gladiators has a +2 defending weapon and the Assassin has a +2 keen dagger (crit 19+)

all of that seems atleast to me with in the spirit of DMing this encounter (not to mention I have to actualy make it fun for the PCs playing)

edit: forgot
Mind FLayer (MMpg 221-222) cr 7 2,900xp
wow he is weaker then the assassin he is controlling... funny but I'm giving him 2 more magic things... a head band of intellect 20, and a mystic/psychic room that works like cerebro from x-men movies/comics as the mcguffen letting him control a whole town...

So ok lets do this… yea 3 18th level PCs…

Lav’en’akshi is a Drow woman who ran away from home as a young adult and never stoped running… today she goes by the name Akshi the Shadow dancer…
Female Drow Charlton lv 18 Monk (way of shadow) 6/ Rogue (arcane trickster) 6/ Bard (College of lore) 6
Str 11, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20
Spell slots 4/3/3/2
Addit magic secret (9+2 spells), counter charm, cutting words, bardic inspiration d8, expertise(2), jack of all trades, 4 cantrips
Expertise (4), 3d6 sneak attack uncanny dodge, cunning action, Mage hand trick, 4spells, 3 cantrips
unarmed 1d6, 6 ki pts, 45ft mv, shadow arts shadow step
3 feat: Actor, Keen Mind, Martial Adept
Spells known:
Cantrips: Friends, Prestidigitation, True strike, Vicious Mockery, Minor illusion, Mage hand, Message, Blade ward, Druid craft
1st Cure wounds, Identify, Speak w/animals, Detect magic, Silent image, Disguise self, shield
2nd Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Hold person, blinding smite
3rd Speak w/ dead, Non detection, dispel magic
18d8+36 (122hp)
Skills: Acrobatics(expertise), Deception(expertise), Insight (expertise), Persuasion, Performance, Stealth(expertise), Sleigh of hands
Prof: Theives tools (expertise), Recorder, Disguise kit, Forgery Kit
False Identity
Magic items- Cloak of protection (+1 saves), Shadow mark tattoos (monk unarmed damge as 5 levels higher), +1 hand crossbow, 6 doses of drow sleep poison,

Val’mar is a human wizard who originally set out to be a hero, but got stick with a bunch of mercs and hulagins. His heart is in the right place, but it also has some caluses on it.

Male human Sage 18 Wizard (invoker)
Str 12 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 16 Cha 12
Spell slots 4/3/3/3/3/1/1/1/1
Arcane Recovery 9 Spell Mastery Shield, Magic Missile
Sculpt spell, powerful cantrip, Empowered evocations, over channel
Keen Mind, Linguistic, observant, war caster
Spells Preped:
Cantrip Acid Splash, Light, Poison spray, Ray of frost, Shocking grasp
1st Mage armor, Burning hands
2nd Misty step, spider climb, scorching ray
3rd Fire ball, lighting bolt, counter spell, dispel magic
4Th Fire Shield, Stone skin
5th Cone of Cold, Legend lore, pass wall, Telekinesis, Wall of stone
6th Arcane gate, Disintegrate
7th Finger of Death, Delayed blast fireball
8th Anti Magic field, feeble mind
9th Time Stop
Magic items- Pearl of power level 6, Pearl of power level 3, Wand of +1 save DC, Ring of protection +1, +1 lighting dagger (+1d6 electric damage)
Hp 18d6+36 ( 98hp)
Sir Talian
Yea, he’s not really a knight, but he likes the title sir, it makes him feel important. He is mostly a thug, but one that isn’t really evil per say.
Half elf 18th level Soldier Fighter (battle master) 18

Str 20 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 14
6d12 Superiority Dice
Maneuvers: Disarming attack, Feinting attack, Lunging attack, Maneuvering attack, Parry, Rally, Riposte, Sweeping attack, Trip attack
Relentless, Know your enemy, Student of War, Second wind, Action Surge
Extra Attacks, Indomitable, Fighting style (Defensive)
Feats: Lucky, Mage Slayer, Savage Attacker, Inspiring Leader, 3 stat bumps
18d10+54 ( 161hp)
Magic items: +1 flaming long sword, +1 Shield, +1 long bow, +1 chain armor, Ring of spell storing (hast), 20 flaming arrows

[/sblock]

so I didn't let the PCs make the characters because they didn't know what was being tested, and between making the character and running the game a few things came out...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, so off the bat... one night 6 encounters and some putsing around= TPK... and not the way I would think.

10 things I learned
1st- the difference between trying to make a quick and easy to use wizard and a complex competitive fighter is still scary large, and gives me some fears of LFQW to be honest (I have had them through the playtest but this is my first experiment with lv18)

2nd- out of the first 2 encounters, the PCs went 7 rounds of combat (4 the first one and 3 the second) with a bit of time but way too little even for a 4e short rest let alone a 5e one in-between. The wizard used all 3 3rd level spells on fireball... and then used a round to recall (pearl of power) to use a 4th fireball. If we added up the number of people the other 2 killed for the entire 6 encounters they together didn't kill as many as the first 3 fireballs did. (To be fair the fighter did choose not to kill 3 towns folk when he could have)

3rd- That assassin was not as bad as I thought it would be. He got a perfect storm, he hit the shadow dancer for surprise crit (5d6+3)x2 + con save vs 7d6...and she failed the save. just over 70hp damage and she wasn't at full hp. However the wizard (not realizing that was a big surprise hit and thinking I could repeat the attack) Disintegrated him before he could do anything else.

4th- in the second to last encounter when the 5 guys jumped and took down the fighter it was pure bad luck... the fighter should have walked away, but I rolled a bit high

5th- the final encounter (still half the town to go) was just too much for 2 PCs, even when one had awesome spells.

6th- Spell mastery shield is evil... every round the mage used it.

7th- The way Identify works now was a major boon. The PCs shut themselves into a brothel long enough to cast identify and figure out what was going on, changing the game from kill to rescue the town.

8th- numbers matter in this edition, a group fo people with bows scare the PCs into fireballing towns.

9th- Pearl of powers should be capped, the 6th level one was a bit op (recalling disintegrate was a bad bad call on my part)

10th- even at 18th level some pretty common things over whelmed the PCs...

 

[travathian]

No cleric? Come on!

Give me a party of 4 please, one of each core class (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) and they destroy the town easily. Second, give them magic items deserving of 18th level characters. According to your list, they have magic items on par with an entire town. This is a group of PCs that are 18th level, they are archetypes for their class. Someone casting detect magic should be blinded when looking at them. Even in a low magic world, there is no way they are so poorly equipped, while the townsfolk match them magic item-wise.

A mage without the fly spell? Never. The moment the hits the fan, mage casts fly on self and 3 party members, and they all fly away into the night, with the cleric and mage lobbing spells back at the town or summoning fodder to distract. Your spell choices for an evoker are puzzling, especially levels 6+. Not to mention the wands/staves/scrolls/potions the mage and cleric would have available as all sorts of 'get out of jail' counters.

I could go on, but I don't see the point. The town provides virtually no challenge to a high level group of competent, fairly equipped PCs.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No cleric? Come on!

the bard had healing and buffing...

Give me a party of 4 please, one of each core class (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue)

and what? make someone play 2 characters? it was a one off, where 1 player from my Tuesday night game, and a player who hasn't played in a while, and her boyfriend came over to play...

Second, give them magic items deserving of 18th level characters.

how do I decide what that is? the basic assumption is 0 items in 5e I thought...

According to your list, they have magic items on par with an entire town.

yea, 3 people have the same amount as a whole town... think that through for a moment...

This is a group of PCs that are 18th level, they are archetypes for their class. Someone casting detect magic should be blinded when looking at them. Even in a low magic world, there is no way they are so poorly equipped, while the townsfolk match them magic item-wise.

why?

A mage without the fly spell? Never.

I have seen many wizards with out fly... but maybe they had a fly spell... just not prepped.

The moment the hits the fan, mage casts fly on self and 3 party members, and they all fly away into the night,

again with this idea that everymember of a class needs the same resource...

Your spell choices for an evoker are puzzling, especially levels 6+. Not to mention the wands/staves/scrolls/potions the mage and cleric would have available as all sorts of 'get out of jail' counters.

please show your work... if you question a spell, then question it, and I don't see anything as of yet saying all casters have wands/staves/scrolls... but since the caster was ALREADY more powerful shouldn't the non casters be the ones needing more power?,

I could go on, but I don't see the point. The town provides virtually no challenge to a high level group of competent, fairly equipped PCs.

except I can show my work... TPK

 

[GMforPowergamers]

mage:

Cantrip Acid Splash, Light, Poison spray, Ray of frost, Shocking grasp

looked good to me bunch of options for damage...and light, other caster had other cool spells

Friends, Prestidigitation, True strike, Vicious Mockery, Minor illusion, Mage hand, Message, Blade ward, Druid craft

I mean between them they have so many options...

1st Mage armor, Burning hands

AC boost and good aoe damage (remember shield and Magic missile at will too)

2nd Misty step, spider climb, scorching ray

teleport mobility and another damage spell

3rd Fire ball, lighting bolt, counter spell, dispel magic

1 defence, 2 offense and a good mix of both

4Th Fire Shield, Stone skin

yet again defence, but I can boost my offensive spells to these slots as needed

5th Cone of Cold, Legend lore, pass wall, Telekinesis, Wall of stone

defense, offesnes and control, and that's just Telekinesis...

6th Arcane gate, Disintegrate

I can't imagine you have a problem with these two spells, one is deadly and useful the other is an escape classic...

7th Finger of Death, Delayed blast fireball
8th Anti Magic field, feeble mind

these seem to me to be the best spells they have... infact after the TPK the one thing they wished they had done differently was once they learned of the mind control was the Anti Magic Field...

9th Time Stop

I will admit I did kinda cheese out here knowing it would be of little help...

Magic items- Pearl of power level 6, Pearl of power level 3,

yes super powerful, an no one in town had anything equal to these 2 items...

Wand of +1 save DC,

nice boost wasn't sure what else to give them

Ring of protection +1, +1 lighting dagger (+1d6 electric damage)

seems mostly standard

 

[SilverfireSage]

No cleric? Come on!

Give me a party of 4 please, one of each core class (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) and they destroy the town easily. Second, give them magic items deserving of 18th level characters. According to your list, they have magic items on par with an entire town. This is a group of PCs that are 18th level, they are archetypes for their class. Someone casting detect magic should be blinded when looking at them. Even in a low magic world, there is no way they are so poorly equipped, while the townsfolk match them magic item-wise.

A mage without the fly spell? Never. The moment the hits the fan, mage casts fly on self and 3 party members, and they all fly away into the night, with the cleric and mage lobbing spells back at the town or summoning fodder to distract. Your spell choices for an evoker are puzzling, especially levels 6+. Not to mention the wands/staves/scrolls/potions the mage and cleric would have available as all sorts of 'get out of jail' counters.

I could go on, but I don't see the point. The town provides virtually no challenge to a high level group of competent, fairly equipped PCs.

It's amazing to me that someone could post so much stuff, go through all that effort (and with exceptional detail and forethought) only to have someone counter that no, that can't possibly be true, yet provide no evidence of their own. Well done GM. Excellent analysis.

 

[Unwise]

An interesting read, thanks for sharing. I might have missed it, but what is the XP budget for an encounter with 3 level 18s? I'm just curious how the town stacks up to an encounter worth the same XP but with just a handful of bad guys.

 

[travathian]

the bard had healing and buffing...

You didn't have a bard, you had a triple classed character with some bard levels whose healing was nothing compared to an 18th level cleric.

and what? make someone play 2 characters? it was a one off, where 1 player from my Tuesday night game, and a player who hasn't played in a while, and her boyfriend came over to play...

In a one off game with nothing but combat? Why not? Or play the cleric yourself, and just the other players make plot/progression decisions.

how do I decide what that is? the basic assumption is 0 items in 5e I thought...

I can't help but think you are jerking my chain at this point... the basic assumption for a party of 18th level characters is that they have no magic items?!? Yet a small farming town has a bunch? Where did you get this from? By the end of Lost Mines of Phandelver the party has magic items equivalent to your 18th level party . . ?

yea, 3 people have the same amount as a whole town... think that through for a moment...

Your point? It is a small pissant town, I expect them to have virtually no magical items.

I have seen many wizards with out fly... but maybe they had a fly spell... just not prepped.

Again, no competent 18th level wizard is going to fail to have fly available, either as a prepared spell or scroll or magic item. It is simply so versatile and useful. You can argue that not all mages need the same spells all you want, but show me an 18th level mage without the ability to fly and I question just how they survived to get to that level. Or how poor the DM is.

please show your work... if you question a spell, then question it, and I don't see anything as of yet saying all casters have wands/staves/scrolls... but since the caster was ALREADY more powerful shouldn't the non casters be the ones needing more power?,

Arcane gate? Why would an evoker have that prepared, and then not use it for the party to escape? Time stop you already said was cheese. And again, with both Time Stop and Arcane gate how can the party not escape . . ? Delayed blast fireball is terrible. Finger of death? Why not the infinitely useful teleport (another must have spell) or prismatic spray? And wands and scrolls and such don't make a mage or cleric more powerful any more so than plate mail +5 and a holy avenger makes a paladin more powerful. Are you seriously claiming that because the DMG isn't out yet that there is some default that characters don't have or will get magic items? Have you ever played D&D before? lol

except I can show my work... TPK

*yawn* Seriously? You are claiming you can show your work? Well , I can show that a single skeleton can kill an army of 18th level characters. Lets see, army of 100 18th level warriors, walking across a rope bridge a mile long over a chasm a mile deep. Skeleton cuts rope. They all fall to their deaths. Yah! TPK, I showed my work. One skeleton = army of 18th level characters. Woohoo!

 

[travathian]

It's amazing to me that someone could post so much stuff, go through all that effort (and with exceptional detail and forethought) only to have someone counter that no, that can't possibly be true, yet provide no evidence of their own. Well done GM. Excellent analysis.

Polish a turd all you want, it is still a turd. I don't need to find a turd and polish it just to prove what yours is. What evidence would suffice? That I run the same scenario? I dont need to. I can show my players this thread and they too would laugh their asses off. The 'givens' by the above DM are ludicrous, because such a scenario would never happen. Furthermore, a competent group of gamers, even with a DM going to such great lengths to screw them, still would escape and eventually either slaughter the town or kill the mind flayer. Yes, I know this is an appeal to authority, but I aint writing a scientific paper on the subject. I have gamed for 25 years now, the above scenario is a joke and the circumstances under which the DM ran it are likewise a joke in proving 'evidence' that a small town would be a challenge for a high level party.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Polish a turd all you want, it is still a turd. I don't need to find a turd and polish it just to prove what yours is. What evidence would suffice? That I run the same scenario? I dont want to.

FTFY.