D&D 5E (2014) playtest 18th level PC vs town...lFqW reborn... or not

[raleel]

To the OP: how do you think this would have gone with the wizard in more of a controller style? Things like hypnotic pattern to make more use of the other party members for the raw damage and have the wizard control the flow?

I ask not so much because I question your methods, but rather to learn about how the play style of the wizard has changed over previous editions. Like other folks in here, I have witnessed a lot of wizards with a spell layout like you describe, but I suspect with the spell slot mechanic the flow of a wizard has changed a bit.

Thank you for running this test. Quite informative

 

[GMforPowergamers]

To the OP: how do you think this would have gone with the wizard in more of a controller style? Things like hypnotic pattern to make more use of the other party members for the raw damage and have the wizard control the flow?

I obviously can't say for sure, but my guess is that would have done better, but not much so... and would have been less fun.

The wizard was doing the most damage, and was getting more then half the kills (yes more then 50% of the 3 people getting kills) so if they went into control the fights would have taken much longer...

Like other folks in here, I have witnessed a lot of wizards with a spell layout like you describe, but I suspect with the spell slot mechanic the flow of a wizard has changed a bit.

since the PHB came out I have run 4 of these little one shots, and yes things seem to be a bit different, I am yet to truly get that fine tuned. I think having a player run one for 4 or 5 levels would be more telling at this point.

 

[sithramir]

I personally think a damage only style wizard is one of the weakest types in 5E against BBEGs AND against low level mooks.

Not saying they shouldnt have fireball or some damage but a lot of the other spells have higher potential now.

Also BBEGs have a lot more HP's and often more damage so those spells can be effective even if only stopping them for a round or two.

Cool one shot but I would love to see some different spells used. Can be pretty huge game changer.

Amazing what a web spell can do for instance

 

[raleel]

Right, I think that is some of what I was getting at. That and you have spell slots and spells memorized and that tends to promote you having a broader range of spells memorized. For example, you might have

1. bread and butter damage at no cost
2. long term defense
3. short term defense
4. single target control (wisdom based)
5. Single target control (con based)

and so on. Then use the flexibility of the slots to determine what I end up casting. Like the caster here did, I might fireball several times, but have a wide variety left over in those slot-level 3 capable spells.

And it's not that this one was particularly bad or anything like that by any means, but things like fireball, lighting bolt, cone of cold AND burning hands. Those are all AOE damage, with the only real distinction being damage types (and range with burning hands, which I think is better served with thunderwave). While damage type can be quite important, I tend to only do one and a backup, and then rely on something else entirely (like your at will magic missile, which isn't great damage).

I may not be explaining myself well here.

 

[toasterferret]

Right, I think that is some of what I was getting at. That and you have spell slots and spells memorized and that tends to promote you having a broader range of spells memorized. For example, you might have

1. bread and butter damage at no cost
2. long term defense
3. short term defense
4. single target control (wisdom based)
5. Single target control (con based)

and so on. Then use the flexibility of the slots to determine what I end up casting. Like the caster here did, I might fireball several times, but have a wide variety left over in those slot-level 3 capable spells.

And it's not that this one was particularly bad or anything like that by any means, but things like fireball, lighting bolt, cone of cold AND burning hands. Those are all AOE damage, with the only real distinction being damage types (and range with burning hands, which I think is better served with thunderwave). While damage type can be quite important, I tend to only do one and a backup, and then rely on something else entirely (like your at will magic missile, which isn't great damage).

I may not be explaining myself well here.

Makes sense to me. It sounds like the Wizard had a pretty gimped spell selection IMO. It sounds like the DM hates "must haves" but, things gain that status for a reason. Not everything is perfectly balanced, you can't just pick random spells or all blaster spells, or all utility spells and be anywhere near the power level of someone who selects their spell list with precision and purpose. The lack of fly boggles my mind, as does the lack of shapechange or summoning spells of any kind.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Makes sense to me. It sounds like the Wizard had a pretty gimped spell selection IMO.

you know that it makes it impossible to do this kind of playtest if everyone says it had to be perfect build. keep in mind in real play not everyone makes perfect decisions...

It sounds like the DM hates "must haves" but,

more like doesn't believe in them

things gain that status for a reason.

because a sub set of players practice one true wayism...

Not everything is perfectly balanced, you can't just pick random spells or all blaster spells, or all utility spells and be anywhere near the power level of someone who selects their spell list with precision and purpose

and yet with a pretty random set of spells (that I did explain) was the most powerful character in the group. If you are correct (and I will assume you are) then there is a HUGE issue, and LFQW is back with a vengeance.

The lack of fly boggles my mind, as does the lack of shapechange or summoning spells of any kind.

it never accured to me that fly would be helpful at all, and to be honest inles they chose to run instead of fight I still don't see it. However shapechange is cool but so is time stop, and summoning spells are a bit too much work at the table for a 1 off game.

the wizard was ment to be the most basic easy go to wizard...

 

[raleel]

Makes sense to me. It sounds like the Wizard had a pretty gimped spell selection IMO. It sounds like the DM hates "must haves" but, things gain that status for a reason. Not everything is perfectly balanced, you can't just pick random spells or all blaster spells, or all utility spells and be anywhere near the power level of someone who selects their spell list with precision and purpose. The lack of fly boggles my mind, as does the lack of shapechange or summoning spells of any kind.

I think you might characterize it harshly.

I think the test was probably just fine, but I think it did more than enough to illustrate that a town is a match for high level characters. I doubt that careful spell select would have made a HUGE difference in the outcome - things like fly can be dealt with with crossbows, etc, but I suspect it might have allowed them to not quite TPK, but be pushed right up to their breaking point.

I mean, after all, Mr Wizard's 20 AC (+1 dex, +3 mage armor, +5 shield, +1 ring of protection if that does what I think it does) is still able to be overcome by masses of crossbow-wielding commoners (+2 to hit means 15% hit, and 1/3 of those crit) - 20 guys, even with shield up, are going to pull 4d8 damage. Summons would probably make a bigger impact, because now you can match numbers to numbers a little better (24 CR1/4 mephits with an 8th level slot, each one pops a commoner every time they hit, restrain folks for a minute or steam blasts, etc)

I think more importantly though that, even with a well optimized spell selection (and some might argue foreknowledge), the party would be pushed - it would not be a cakewalk. they might have done better, even quite a bit better, but it would not have been without a lot of resource expenditure.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Val’mar is a human wizard who originally set out to be a hero, but got stick with a bunch of mercs and hulagins. His heart is in the right place, but it also has some caluses on it.

Male human Sage 18 Wizard (invoker)

Str 12 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 16 Cha 12

Spell slots 4/3/3/3/3/1/1/1/1

Arcane Recovery 9 Spell Mastery Shield, Magic Missile

Sculpt spell, powerful cantrip, Empowered evocations, over channel
Keen Mind, Linguistic, observant, war caster

Spells Preped:
Cantrip Acid Splash, Light, Poison spray, Ray of frost, Shocking grasp
1st Mage armor, Burning hands
2nd Misty step, spider climb, scorching ray
3rd Fire ball, lighting bolt, counter spell, dispel magic
4Th Fire Shield, Stone skin
5th Cone of Cold, Legend lore, pass wall, Telekinesis, Wall of stone
6th Arcane gate, Disintegrate
7th Finger of Death, Delayed blast fireball
8th Anti Magic field, feeble mind
9th Time Stop


Magic items- Pearl of power level 6, Pearl of power level 3, Wand of +1 save DC, Ring of protection +1, +1 lighting dagger (+1d6 electric damage)

Hp 18d6+36 ( 98hp)


so to go over the spells:

offensive (10) Magic Missle (at will)Burning hands, Scorching Ray. Firball, Lightning bolt, COne of Cold, Disintegrate, FInger of Death, Delayed blast fireball, feeble mind (4 fire, 2 force, 1 lighting, 2 SoD, 2 cones (one small one big), 4 rays, 1 ball) seems like a good mix to me,

defensive (7) Shield(at will), Mage armor, Counter spell, Fire Shield, Stone Skin, Anti Magic Field, Time stop

Movement (4) Misty Step, Spider Climb, Pass wall, Arcane Gate

Control (2) Wall of stone, Telekinesis

Other (1) Legend lore

 

[raleel]

so to go over the spells:

offensive (10) Magic Missle (at will)Burning hands, Scorching Ray. Firball, Lightning bolt, COne of Cold, Disintegrate, FInger of Death, Delayed blast fireball, feeble mind (4 fire, 2 force, 1 lighting, 2 SoD, 2 cones (one small one big), 4 rays, 1 ball) seems like a good mix to me,

defensive (7) Shield(at will), Mage armor, Counter spell, Fire Shield, Stone Skin, Anti Magic Field, Time stop

Movement (4) Misty Step, Spider Climb, Pass wall, Arcane Gate

Control (2) Wall of stone, Telekinesis

Other (1) Legend lore

Right, I've been referencing your one on the front page. My preference would be less fire (drop DBF, it is only better than fireball after a big delay really) and less rays (drop FoD, it hits con, high level stuff tends to have high con, single target), and probably drop lightning bolt (decent damage type, but less useful AOE, same damage as fireball)

I'm not sure I would take Fire Shield myself, but I think the offensive spells probably are enough to get the flexibility to do some more interesting things - conjure minor elementals, fly, hypnotic pattern. Hold person/monster would be good in there.

Let me emphasize it again - I think that the test is mostly fine. I think they would have done a bit better with a slightly different spell selection. I don't know how much foreknowledge was assumed, but that particular setup is heavy on the offensive spells for the wizard who burned all of his level 3 slots on a single one The lower level spells are useful for a lot longer - helped by the fact that lower level monsters are also useful for a lot longer.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't know how much foreknowledge was assumed, but that particular setup is heavy on the offensive spells for the wizard who burned all of his level 3 slots on a single one The lower level spells are useful for a lot longer - helped by the fact that lower level monsters are also useful for a lot longer.

the set up was they had been adventuring for a while I spun some BS about 2 or 3 other things they did, and as part of that said they stopped a mindflayer form taking over a trading post on the edge of the underdark... hoping to bury that detail. Then I told them they just finished a huge dungeon crawl by fighting a white dragon. The game started they had been in town cashing in for the last four days, and passed out in the common room of an inn/tavern they rented out. I woke them up with a group of townsfolk storming there room