D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

[Chaosmancer]

Using ability checks to mask your spellcasting? Totally acceptable house rule, but it's nowhere in the RAW. It bypasses what I believe to be a much-needed limitation of spellcasting that levels the playing field a tiny bit when compared to non-spellcasters (without changing the rules). To ignore those components is to make casters even more potent because enemies may never know they are being targeted.

D&D spellcasting components are an amalgamation of activities that are porttrayed in lots of media. It's not just precise hand gestures that need training and practice to get right (like in "The Magicians," or mudras in lots of anime). It's not just speaking the words out loud and waving a wand like in the Wizarding World. It's not just the alchemy of materials to power the casting. It's potentially all of the above.

How I see the narrative? Reality is determined by our (potentially shared) perception, and wielding magic via spellcasting is an intense, focused effort to reshape reality, so you are manifesting your power to challenge not only the perception of everyone witnessing it, but you are convincing reality itself that you mean it.

Right, but look at the plot of Aladdin.

Jafar charms the Sultan. The minutes or hours later the charm wears off and the Sultan realizes he has been charmed. So he orders his guards to capture and execute Jafar.

Sound exciting to you? And sure, you can simply declare that Jafar's staff was a magic item that worked differently, or that Jafar had a different spell, or any number of things, but there are a lot of spells in DnD whose entire purpose is wasted ink if you have to essentially declare to the target and anyone nearby that you are casting a spell on them. And those spells are meant for players.

So, I don't see the increase, because I see the entire point of those spells as being spells which are applied with no one the wiser.

 

[mellored]

The issue I have is that people want to make an exception for Necromancy, making it the only evil school of magic,

Depending on how it's works...

I always felt like having an army of mindless undead would be great for an economy.

Like have them build roads, pick crops, deliver packages, work in steel mills, and other mundane chores like that. Put a small horde of undead rats in a hamster wheel, stick it on a cart, and you got yourself a car.

Assuming your not torturing someone's soul or such.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Depending on how it's works...

I always felt like having an army of mindless undead would be great for an economy.

Like have them build roads, pick crops, deliver packages, work in steel mills, and other mundane chores like that. Put a small horde of undead rats in a hamster wheel, stick it on a cart, and you got yourself a car.

Assuming your not torturing someone's soul or such.

Yeah, and the thing is that it is always fairly clear in DnD that the soul is completely separate from any skeleton or zombie created.

Plus, there are plenty of ways to ask permission, and have cultures of "honored dead" who choose undeath to defend and aid their homelands and protect their families. It is strange to us, but if you are building an alien, fantasy culture with different understandings and realities of metaphysics...

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Right, but look at the plot of Aladdin.

Jafar charms the Sultan. The minutes or hours later the charm wears off and the Sultan realizes he has been charmed. So he orders his guards to capture and execute Jafar.

Sound exciting to you? And sure, you can simply declare that Jafar's staff was a magic item that worked differently, or that Jafar had a different spell, or any number of things, but there are a lot of spells in DnD whose entire purpose is wasted ink if you have to essentially declare to the target and anyone nearby that you are casting a spell on them. And those spells are meant for players.

So, I don't see the increase, because I see the entire point of those spells as being spells which are applied with no one the wiser.

Yes, if we have to translate Aladdin into D&D terms (which it doesn't normally translate into, as that universe has its own rules for magic), Jafar likely used a more powerful magic than "Friends" or "Charm Person." Of course there can be higher level enchantments that are more subtle in effect. That can be a function of the power (spell) level. Sorcerers with Subtle Spell have a real benefit in the universe, as do those who can use spell-like abilities that mimic enchantment spells without requiring the actual casting. As an aside, Jafar doesn't look like a Wizard to me. He looks like a Sorcerer. That helps his narrative when re-imagining the story using D&D rules.

There are all kinds of non-D&D stories where magic is unstoppable because it serves the story. I prefer when D&D universe magic (designed for a game, not a story where the narrative is designed from beginning to end) is somewhat fallible and the caster has to actually use their intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, or cunning if you will, to make the right decisions, select the right targets, so they can navigate the aftermath. Perhaps charming a target when they are asleep. Or they can luck out and are able to target an idiot who somehow has the power they desire to influence.

Of course none of this matters if the enemies are destined to die and witnesses be damned. A caster can charm the guard, and dispose of them when they become a liability. It's a lot harder to control the leader of a nation. I don't want it to be so easy that it can happen every day. It has to be rare enough so that the populace don't really see it as a likely threat. To me that means rarer, higher level magics or magic items. These kinds of rules matter most when the caster wants to survive and thrive in the society they are casting spells in. Do they want to have the trust of the people, rather than be feared? They shouldn't rock the boat and give them a reason to be distrusted.

 

[Remathilis]

It might be worth considering that the "Jedi Mind Trick" is not an evil act in Star Wars.

 

[mellored]

I'll also throw out that it's only you that gets advantage.

If you drug someone, they might be more vulnerable to all suggestions.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Most "night on the town" includes alcohol. So not exactly.

Most but not all. Again. this is against the target's will. If someone orders a virgin drink and you spike it, particularly to manipulate them to doing something you want, I would hope we all agree that it's a bad guy move.

Does mind reading have the same trigger for you?

Target makes a will save, if they fail you can read surface level emotions...

IMO, mind reading is bad, but less bad, like comparing stealing intimate pics of someone vs assault.

.

Maybe an illusion?

Target makes a will save, if they fail you create a subtle illusion in their eyes and ears that gives you a glow and makes your voice seem clearer....

I'd be more comfortable with that.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

It might be worth considering that the "Jedi Mind Trick" is not an evil act in Star Wars.

Only because George Lucas said that it is not. There are certainly those in the world who make claims that certain acts aren't evil.

Would you be ok with getting "Jedi Mind Tricked" to do something against your nature? I know I wouldn't.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is not mind control, this is not ruffieing someone, this is not forcing someone to do something they would not normally do.

If you needed the advantage, yes, the roofie made them do something they wouldn't have done otherwise.

It makes your words smoother, it causes you to project more confidence, it makes you seem a little more trustworthy.

According to the spell, it makes them susceptible to your words. That's why the target is another person rather than self, and why it only works on one target.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes, if we have to translate Aladdin into D&D terms (which it doesn't normally translate into, as that universe has its own rules for magic)

Yes this is true of every single piece of fantasy literature/media including the DnD novels. I was just bringing up a cultural touchstone for the idea of a conniving caster who enchants a ruler. A thing that happens quite a bit in fantasy literature/media

, Jafar likely used a more powerful magic than "Friends" or "Charm Person." Of course there can be higher level enchantments that are more subtle in effect. That can be a function of the power (spell) level.

It can be. Can you name any? Is there any enchantment spell in 5e that states it is more subtle than any other?

Sorcerers with Subtle Spell have a real benefit in the universe, as do those who can use spell-like abilities that mimic enchantment spells without requiring the actual casting. As an aside, Jafar doesn't look like a Wizard to me. He looks like a Sorcerer. That helps his narrative when re-imagining the story using D&D rules.

Here's the problem. Sorcerers don't make spells. So, yes, Sorcerer Subtle spell is nice and all, but the spell could not have been designed with it in mind, because Sorcerer's don't design spells. So it was a wizard who made this spell, and they didn't have Subtle Spell as an option.

And, again, we have to address "what was this spell designed to do?"

There are all kinds of non-D&D stories where magic is unstoppable because it serves the story. I prefer when D&D universe magic (designed for a game, not a story where the narrative is designed from beginning to end) is somewhat fallible and the caster has to actually use their intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, or cunning if you will, to make the right decisions, select the right targets, so they can navigate the aftermath. Perhaps charming a target when they are asleep. Or they can luck out and are able to target an idiot who somehow has the power they desire to influence.

How is "requires a save" unstoppable? And all the spell does is give you advantage on a skill check, which still is only called on by the DM. How does that not require intelligence and Charisma?

But, also this, what are the proper targets? Someone who is asleep?! Seriously, it lasts a minute and only gives advantage on charisma saves. Breaking and entering, sneaking into someone's home, and all this to use a cantrip? Come on. Again, think about the in-universe designer of the spell. They didn't make it with the requirement of breaking and entering.

Of course none of this matters if the enemies are destined to die and witnesses be damned. A caster can charm the guard, and dispose of them when they become a liability. It's a lot harder to control the leader of a nation. I don't want it to be so easy that it can happen every day. It has to be rare enough so that the populace don't really see it as a likely threat. To me that means rarer, higher level magics or magic items. These kinds of rules matter most when the caster wants to survive and thrive in the society they are casting spells in. Do they want to have the trust of the people, rather than be feared? They shouldn't rock the boat and give them a reason to be distrusted.

You mean like the leader of the nation having a decent Wisdom save? Maybe an item which prevents them from being charmed?

Here's my issue. With the idea that a caster must LOUDLY DECLARE MAGIC IS HAPPENING is that you can't use this cantrip against people in the pub, or a merchant in the bazaar, or any other situation that a 1st level bard might encounter. Cause, you know, Cantrips aren't meant for high level players who can take over nations or can casually murder guards after using them to infiltrate a castle. It is meant for 1st level characters, who are just in public.