D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

I am offended by lots of marketing and influencing, and politicians, and being forced to choose between bad choices, and I think Enchantment is the most evil spell school in the game. So yeah. If someone tries to manipulate me, I may get pissed. So much control has been taken from me in the world that I very much care about controlling my fate as much as I can.

Which is a completely legitimate way to feel, the world sucks and there are many ways that it has been turned against us. And I am inclined to agree that, of all schools of magic, Enchantment has one of the highest tendencies to be used in ways I find personally repulsive in all circumstances.

However, I disagree with you on taking this view of all persuasion attempts. I have tried to persuade people that the world does have things worth hoping for, or that the terrible they have suffered does not mean that their entire life is worthless or over. These are equally as manipulative, because they use many of the same tactics. The end goal is different though. If you have manipulated someone purely for their own benefit, that is vastly different than manipulating them for your own benefit.

And while the ideal of "just never manipulate anyone!" sounds good, the only actual way to do that is to never interact with another human being, because everything we do in a human interaction is to manipulate the other person to seeing our point of view.

Which, tying back to the cantrip, I see this view of yours as tied almost directly into how you desire this cantrip to be blatantly obvious to everyone. You want "manipulation" to be unquestioning and obvious to everyone, so that everyone can turn on the person who does it, but that goes against the in-world logic of why someone would develop a spell that makes people more likely to listen to them.
 

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Magic is neither good nor evil. It's a tool, nothing more. Is a screwdriver bad because you could stab someone with it? Or is the problem the maniac who wants to stab someone with a screwdriver?

Now, would I want to be charmed in real life? Absolutely not, and I can't imagine a character in a fantasy game world would care much for it either. However, at the end of the day we are left with the following:

Spell exists.
Spell is therefore presented as a viable choice for players to take.
Spell has defined effect that is not wildly unbalanced.
Spell should be fine, but is immediately viewed in a harsh light due to social and moral implications so that it effectively becomes useless.

This is a problem, no matter how you look at it. Either the spell and all others like it shouldn't exist, or the spell is basically shadow-banned because using it will almost certainly make things worse for you than if you hadn't used it at all.
 

Most divinations are self inflicted, but if someone tells me "I see you future and this is your destiny" whether via religious dogma saying I'm going to hell, or an astrologer, or anything mystical, it's not going to land well with me. Don't burden me with your delusions.

What about a divination that reveals something from the past about a loved one? Translating from fantasy, it would be the equivalent of finding a recorded video of the event in question, not a delusion. You can't think about these things from only one angle. Divination is past, present AND future.

And you can 100% absolutely manipulate someone by telling them the truth at a pivotal moment.

I don't want to excuse or make excuses for IRL problems or problematic things, but when talking about something like a DND spell, it needs to be thought of partially from the perspective of a writer. What is the intent, how does it fit into the world, and sometimes that means looking at word choice like "manipulation" versus "persuasion" and think about what that really means, and where we are drawing the lines in the sand, and if those are personal lines or more universal ones.
 

A bit late, but I'd like to take a moment and point out that Bless is an Enchantment school effect. If Bardic Inspiration was a spell, it'd also be Enchantment. Heroism. Sleep and Catnap have beneficial uses as a sleep aid. Zone of Truth has uses in a court room. Calm Emotion is drug-like, but it can be used as the equivalent of a mood balancer for, say, someone who's bipolar.

D&D is a game about fantasy violence, so it should be no surprise that most -published- spells aren't nice. But every school has positive effects, including Enchantment and Necromancy. And I'm sure there's many spells that exist in world that we just don't see, because they're useless for adventurers. Imagine the number of wizard spells that would exist for maintaining books and libraries.

Oh, I 100% agree. That is why I said "enchantment is a school that has perhaps the fewest good and neutral use cases" not "There is no such thing as a good enchantment spell"

Bless is a relatively positive spell. Heroism can be great. But Enchantment also has Command, Dominate Person, Geass, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, most of which include actually taking away free will. They could be used in a positive way, but compared to abjuration or divination where I would have to struggle quite a bit more to find spells that hit that "Wow, that is evil if you think too much about it" camp, Enchantment is the opposite, where I have to really look close and pare down the list to find uses that don't give me heebies.

In 5e, it seems like that the undead, including those from the Raise Dead spell, are created by capturing a "dark spirit" (whatever that is) and shoving it into a corpse. The "dark spirit" then animates the zombie/skeleton and is magically enslaved to obey your command until the spell wears off. At which point, the dark spirit does its own thing, usually attacking the nearest living creature.

Necromancy like this is evil in that it creates murderous creatures that have to be kept under magical domination or they'll turn on anyone living and try to kill them. Which... to be completely fair, is kind of what you do to create most golems, just with elementals being used instead of "dark spirits." Anyways, the point is that undead creation involves non-consentual binding of spirits and said undead being a hazard. Individual tables may vary.

I don't want to dig too far into this debate, but I have pointed out before that this "attacks the nearest living creature" line and the "dark spirit/evil energy' is not in the spell Animate Dead. It is in the monster manual lore. And the "attacks the living" relies on the "powered by evil magic"

Those assumptions are NOT in the PHB, and since a Cleric of Light, Love and Law could cast animate dead, or a Cleric of fire could cast animate dead with the powers and concepts in "flame", I find this assumption frustrating. It is needlessly limiting when it is not required to be. How my spells draw power is largely something I get to decide as a player, not something innate to the spells.
 

Bless is a relatively positive spell. Heroism can be great. But Enchantment also has Command, Dominate Person, Geass, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, most of which include actually taking away free will.
Every evocation spell would also take away free will.

Which i guess only leaves abjuration.
 


Every evocation spell would also take away free will.

Which i guess only leaves abjuration.

No, evocation spells cause physical harm, and potentially death. That isn't the same thing. And before you quip about not having free-will when dead, remember than the Raise Dead spells specify the soul can CHOOSE whether or not to come back, and they actually exist and are basically just people in the Outer Planes.

You have to consider the reality of DnD cosmology when discussing the concept of death in DnD.
 

Oh, I 100% agree. That is why I said "enchantment is a school that has perhaps the fewest good and neutral use cases" not "There is no such thing as a good enchantment spell"

Bless is a relatively positive spell. Heroism can be great. But Enchantment also has Command, Dominate Person, Geass, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, most of which include actually taking away free will. They could be used in a positive way, but compared to abjuration or divination where I would have to struggle quite a bit more to find spells that hit that "Wow, that is evil if you think too much about it" camp, Enchantment is the opposite, where I have to really look close and pare down the list to find uses that don't give me heebies.
I think that you're missing the fact that D&D is a violent game. Of course there's going to be a whole host of violent spells in every school (except Abjuration), because that's what the game revolves around. This is just a kind of selection bias - there's plenty of non-offensive potential in Enchantment school, we just don't get to see it, because, well, defeating antagonists is the name of the game. Literally in this case.

I don't want to dig too far into this debate, but I have pointed out before that this "attacks the nearest living creature" line and the "dark spirit/evil energy' is not in the spell Animate Dead. It is in the monster manual lore. And the "attacks the living" relies on the "powered by evil magic"

Those assumptions are NOT in the PHB, and since a Cleric of Light, Love and Law could cast animate dead, or a Cleric of fire could cast animate dead with the powers and concepts in "flame", I find this assumption frustrating. It is needlessly limiting when it is not required to be. How my spells draw power is largely something I get to decide as a player, not something innate to the spells.
They're in the core books, and the Raise Dead spell specifically references the monsters, which are in the MM. Its like the Conjure Elemental and Conjure Minor Elemental spells. There are no elementals in the PHB, but they very much can be called upon. In fact, the spells (both Raise Dead and the Elemental ones) both reference the DM having the stats, presumably because the DM is the one with the MM.

Saying that its not in the PHB isn't a good excuse. D&D relies on three core books, not just the PHB. You can make a good argument for any book outside of those three, but not the three itself.

Clerics, as a whole, are based around necromancy; its part of their class identity. There's a reason they get Turn Undead, one and all. Clerics get their power from the blessings of gods and other powerful beings of the Outer Planes. Also known as the afterlife that the majority of souls travel to. They get the ability to commune with the dead. So, its only natural that Light and Love and Law cast spells related to necromancy, because that's just part of the base class. Subclasses don't overwrite base classes.

Every evocation spell would also take away free will.

Which i guess only leaves abjuration.
Abjuration is the spell school of defense, so its a lot less offensive in all senses of the words.
 

I think that you're missing the fact that D&D is a violent game. Of course there's going to be a whole host of violent spells in every school (except Abjuration), because that's what the game revolves around. This is just a kind of selection bias - there's plenty of non-offensive potential in Enchantment school, we just don't get to see it, because, well, defeating antagonists is the name of the game. Literally in this case.

I'm not missing that point at all. When looking at the school of "manipulating people's minds" the very concept has very few non-evil uses, especially when compared to the school of "making energy" or the school of "changing physical things"

Secondly, your argument has a few dozen flaws in it.

Control Flames, Druidcraft/Thaumaturgy/Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Shape Water, Ceremony, Comprehend Languages, Create or Destroy Water, Distort Value, Illusory Script, Purify Food and Drink, Unseen Servant, Air Bubble, Arcane Lock, Mordenkainen's Chest, Mordenkainen's Secret Sanctum, Guards and Wards, Temple of the Gods, Creation, Fabricate, Calm Emotions, Gentle Repose, Locate Animals or Plants, Nystuls' Magic Aura, Pyrotechnics, Skywrite, ect ect ect ect

We have spells that aren't violent, aren't combat focused, and have little to no use in the standard adventuring day. Spells for having someone come of age, or building buildings, or making fire dance. Calm Emotions even exists as a not-neccesarily evil, non-combat use for the enchantment school. So you really can't claim selection bias because more spells exist than we can see, when we do get to see other types of spells that would also not be there if this selection bias theory were stronger. I mean, come on, there is an entire high level spell devoted to a pocket mansion. Sure, it can be a place to rest after the violence, but the hut does the exact same thing. It exists for portable luxury.

They're in the core books, and the Raise Dead spell specifically references the monsters, which are in the MM. Its like the Conjure Elemental and Conjure Minor Elemental spells. There are no elementals in the PHB, but they very much can be called upon. In fact, the spells (both Raise Dead and the Elemental ones) both reference the DM having the stats, presumably because the DM is the one with the MM.

Saying that its not in the PHB isn't a good excuse. D&D relies on three core books, not just the PHB. You can make a good argument for any book outside of those three, but not the three itself.

Firstly, Raise Dead is the wrong Necromancy spell. That's the good one that people accept as being fully good with no questions because it brings back PCs as PCs. You mean Animate Dead.

Secondly, the reason it matters that it is in the MM and not the PHB is because you are talking flavor and lore. Yes, the DM has the statistics, but are the stats the lore? No. Just like the Mage in the MM doesn't define how my wizard plays, why am I beholden to the lore of the MM for this?

And, it is very interesting that you bring up Conjure Elemental. Because here is something from that spell "If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled elemental can't be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it."

Animate Dead? "If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete. The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any command you've given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to four creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating a new one."

So, if the intent is that the Animate Dead spell causes uncontrolled undead to attack the nearest living creature.... why is that not mentioned anywhere in the spell? Remember, spells only do what they say they do. It doesn't say anything about evil spirits being used either.

Meaning that, as a player who is not supposed to read the Monster Manual, how am I supposed to know this information? Sure, you can say "you know what a zombie is" but if you take zombie lore back to the roots with misinterpreted Voodoo, they were little more than Flesh Golems (whose creation and use is also not evil)

I'm not saying the MM lore doesn't exist, I'm saying the two different interpretations are in conflict, and we consistently have the Player's override lore when making their characters. Otherwise, you couldn't have interesting PCs for 80% of the lineages in the game.

Clerics, as a whole, are based around necromancy; its part of their class identity. There's a reason they get Turn Undead, one and all. Clerics get their power from the blessings of gods and other powerful beings of the Outer Planes. Also known as the afterlife that the majority of souls travel to. They get the ability to commune with the dead. So, its only natural that Light and Love and Law cast spells related to necromancy, because that's just part of the base class. Subclasses don't overwrite base classes.

So, you are saying it is more reasonable that a Diety of Good and Light, with access to good, selfless souls willing to temporarily give up paradise, to have their cleric use their power to contract an evil spirit that hates life and wishes for the destruction of all light, life, and joy, rather than utilizing the souls of the good and pure beings for a temporary defender?

For me, I'd say there are multiple ways to reach the same end goal, especially since I am aware of multiple different interpretations and takes on Undead, rather than have Good aligned deities empowering evil spirits because the Monster Manual is inflexible.
 

No, evocation spells cause physical harm, and potentially death. That isn't the same thing. And before you quip about not having free-will when dead, remember than the Raise Dead spells specify the soul can CHOOSE whether or not to come back, and they actually exist and are basically just people in the Outer Planes.

You have to consider the reality of DnD cosmology when discussing the concept of death in DnD.
To me, this is lacking nuance.

It sounds like you're suggesting "My murdering this poor orphan with incredible pain and fire isn't an act of evil - I just transported his being to the outer planes. And perhaps he will be transported back to this plane some day with a raise dead spell. See, nothing evil about murder! Now, if I had controlled their decisions for 6 seconds, that would be evil!"

I am exaggerating to demonstrate the disconnect I'm seeing. Burning people alive should be universally viewed as at least "as evil" as controlling their mind for a short period of time in my view.
 

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