D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

To me, this is lacking nuance.

It sounds like you're suggesting "My murdering this poor orphan with incredible pain and fire isn't an act of evil - I just transported his being to the outer planes. And perhaps he will be transported back to this plane some day with a raise dead spell. See, nothing evil about murder! Now, if I had controlled their decisions for 6 seconds, that would be evil!"

I am exaggerating to demonstrate the disconnect I'm seeing. Burning people alive should be universally viewed as at least "as evil" as controlling their mind for a short period of time in my view.

I never said murder wasn't evil.

I said that enchantment spells can be hard to see as good, or even neutral because many of them involve the removal of free will.

I said that evocation is not the removal of free will, because souls have free will, and murdering someone does not remove the free will of their soul. I said this in the context of you claiming that evocation spells remove free will. Which they don't. They cause damage and death, that is different than the removal of free will.

Now, if you are of the opinion that there is only one thing that can possibly be evil in all of existence... that's a you problem. I am perfectly happy with multiple, mutually exclusive actions being evil. This includes (but is obviously not limited to) the removal of free will via mind control, murder, torture, and systematic oppression for your own self-enrichment.
 

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I never said murder wasn't evil.

I said that enchantment spells can be hard to see as good, or even neutral because many of them involve the removal of free will.

I said that evocation is not the removal of free will, because souls have free will, and murdering someone does not remove the free will of their soul. I said this in the context of you claiming that evocation spells remove free will.
I said what now? I am brand new to this conversation and said no such thing. You seem to be confusing me with mellored.

I am saying fireball inherently causes excruciating pain and burning people to death. And that such an act is at least as evil as controlling their will. Not because it removes free will - I don't think losing free will is somehow on the very top of the values system. I think it's in a place at least co-equal with the experience of burning to death.

Which they don't. They cause damage and death, that is different than the removal of free will.

Now, if you are of the opinion that there is only one thing that can possibly be evil in all of existence... that's a you problem.
I didn't say or imply any such thing. I think you're very confused as to who you're having this side conversation with?
 

I said what now? I am brand new to this conversation and said no such thing. You seem to be confusing me with mellored.

Ah, seems you are correct. Apologies.

I am saying fireball inherently causes excruciating pain and burning people to death. And that such an act is at least as evil as controlling their will. Not because it removes free will - I don't think losing free will is somehow on the very top of the values system. I think it's in a place at least co-equal with the experience of burning to death.

Uh huh, and nothing I said disagreed with that. I simply disagreed that evocation spells remove free-will. Because there is an argument of how killing someone removes their free-will IRL, but it is non-applicable to DnD.

Now, if you are asking how I could possibly not list fireball as an evil spell... well, war and violence are generally fairly grey from a removed enough perspective, and this is especially true in DnD. Fireball cannot be evil if it is used to eradicate a swarm of Ankheg, at that point it is no different than a sword, or a bug bomb.

I didn't say or imply any such thing. I think you're very confused as to who you're having this side conversation with?

You seemed to think me saying that death is not the removal of free-will somehow meant that going on a murder-spree was hunky-dory a-okay with me. The only way that leap in logic makes sense if you somehow think (or believe I think) that only one possible thing can be evil.

Otherwise, you came in to accuse me of loose morals just because I was correcting someone on making an accurate statement. Which seems rather silly.
 

Ah, seems you are correct. Apologies.



Uh huh, and nothing I said disagreed with that. I simply disagreed that evocation spells remove free-will. Because there is an argument of how killing someone removes their free-will IRL, but it is non-applicable to DnD.

Now, if you are asking how I could possibly not list fireball as an evil spell... well, war and violence are generally fairly grey from a removed enough perspective, and this is especially true in DnD. Fireball cannot be evil if it is used to eradicate a swarm of Ankheg, at that point it is no different than a sword, or a bug bomb.
And if we could mind control the Ankheg to turn back around, forget they saw us, and go the other way...that would be more evil than burning them all to death?

You seemed to think me saying that death is not the removal of free-will somehow meant that going on a murder-spree was hunky-dory a-okay with me. The only way that leap in logic makes sense if you somehow think (or believe I think) that only one possible thing can be evil.

Otherwise, you came in to accuse me of loose morals just because I was correcting someone on making an accurate statement. Which seems rather silly.
You sure looked like you were saying, or implying, that death was morally a lesser evil than mind control because it didn't remove free will. Otherwise what is the point of arguing about free will when the theme was "is this inherently more evil than that?"
 

I'm not missing that point at all. When looking at the school of "manipulating people's minds" the very concept has very few non-evil uses, especially when compared to the school of "making energy" or the school of "changing physical things"
People willingly take mind-altering drugs all the time. Booze and weed for fun, sleep aids, medicine prescribed by a therapist, herbal supplements to help with concentration, etc. These are all things that Enchantment school can do too in a positive manner.

Secondly, your argument has a few dozen flaws in it.
You're missing the point, perhaps deliberately so - I never used absolutes. D&D has a bias towards exploring dungeons and fighting monsters - its in the name. The overwhelming majority of spells are aimed at doing just that, and yes, there's even a few exceptions to that rule. Its a general trend, not an absolute. Heck, some spells, such as Arcane Lock, are meant to be used AGAINST the party instead of for them - "This spell is what antagonist wizards use to magically protect locks from rogues." Stronghold / dungeon building, in other words; strongholds are just dungeons for PCs instead of enemies. Prestigitation has been quoted as one of the best adventuring utility spells because it can be used to clean up, light fires, etc. All needs for someone surviving away from friendly civilizations. Mending has its uses for fixing things in ruins.

Enchantment, as it specifically targets minds - what kind of minds do you tend to run into while adventuring? Usually commoners, quest givers and antagonists. For the enterprising dungeon builder, controlling their minions. You generally don't need to use magic against the former two types of people, and you generally want to leverage violence against the latter two. D&D generally is a poor game to mimic political games or helping people with mental illnesses.

And, again, this is a general trend. A bias.
Control Flames, Druidcraft/Thaumaturgy/Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Shape Water, Ceremony, Comprehend Languages, Create or Destroy Water, Distort Value, Illusory Script, Purify Food and Drink, Unseen Servant, Air Bubble, Arcane Lock, Mordenkainen's Chest, Mordenkainen's Secret Sanctum, Guards and Wards, Temple of the Gods, Creation, Fabricate, Calm Emotions, Gentle Repose, Locate Animals or Plants, Nystuls' Magic Aura, Pyrotechnics, Skywrite, ect ect ect ect
Most of these very much do have adventuring applications. I mean, hells. Air Bubble is literally a spell designed for exploring hazardous environments. How you can claim that's not adventuring?

Firstly, Raise Dead is the wrong Necromancy spell. That's the good one that people accept as being fully good with no questions because it brings back PCs as PCs. You mean Animate Dead.
Ah. My bad.
Secondly, the reason it matters that it is in the MM and not the PHB is because you are talking flavor and lore. Yes, the DM has the statistics, but are the stats the lore? No. Just like the Mage in the MM doesn't define how my wizard plays, why am I beholden to the lore of the MM for this?
Because, the moment you don't renew the spell... the skeletons and zombies are now NPCs under the control of the DM. You are not the zombies and skeletons. If you want to play an undead character? Hells, I'd be all for it. But your summons and animated dead are not your character. You have magical control over them until the spell ends, same as if you cast Dominate Person on an NPC.

I also find what sounds like disdain towards "flavor and lore" to be out of place. The PHB, MM and DMG all come with default description of how the D&D cosmology works. This is part of that. If you want a homebrew world with different rules, then more power to you. But we should acknowedge that's not the default understanding of D&D cosmology. Here, in any forum, we should default to the cosmology as presented in the book unless otherwise stated.

There's nothing wrong with saying, "I want to use something different than what's in the core books." But this conversation is about why Necromancy (or, in my case, Animate Dead specifically, though there's also an argument that necrotic energy is associated with the Evil Planes) is considered "evil" by default. We're talking about the default assumptions of the D&D cosmology.

And, it is very interesting that you bring up Conjure Elemental. Because here is something from that spell "If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled elemental can't be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it."

Animate Dead? "If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete. The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any command you've given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to four creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating a new one."

So, if the intent is that the Animate Dead spell causes uncontrolled undead to attack the nearest living creature.... why is that not mentioned anywhere in the spell? Remember, spells only do what they say they do. It doesn't say anything about evil spirits being used either.
The intent of Animate Dead is to raise undead and put them under your control... until the time expires and you haven't renewed the spell. Once the duration is over, the undead don't disolve or lose their animation, the spellcaster just loses control over them. At which point, they revert back to their insticts "in the wild." IE. DM control, as described in the DMG.

Meaning that, as a player who is not supposed to read the Monster Manual, how am I supposed to know this information?
There's a ton of ways. Experiment and see what happens when the time expires during downtime. Make a Study (Arcane) check. Use a divination spell. And that's assuming the DM just doesn't tell you as a player and that your PC would automatically know this.

I'm not saying the MM lore doesn't exist, I'm saying the two different interpretations are in conflict, and we consistently have the Player's override lore when making their characters. Otherwise, you couldn't have interesting PCs for 80% of the lineages in the game.
There's no conflict. D&D has a default assumption divorced from the real world. This is understood by the fact that D&D has magic that we need to treat as real and is a complete bastardization of real world mythology.

So, you are saying it is more reasonable that a Diety of Good and Light, with access to good, selfless souls willing to temporarily give up paradise, to have their cleric use their power to contract an evil spirit that hates life and wishes for the destruction of all light, life, and joy, rather than utilizing the souls of the good and pure beings for a temporary defender?
Animate Dead isn't a temporary defender - the undead persist after they're raised. They are creatures of necrotic energy - there's no disputing that. If you wanted something of radiant energy, then maybe, just maybe, you should cast something like Guardian Spirits or some other kind of summoning spell. There's plenty of ways to call down holy beings instead of raising creatuers powered by energy associated with the Hells, Hades and the Abyss.

Why would a god associated with the higher planes grant a spell that requires energy from the lower ones? Perhaps you need to pose as an evil cleric to prevent a greater tragedy. Maybe you need to fake a death to protect a life, and animating a zombie helps with witnesses and smuggling a corpse into a city that you plan to char and leave fully dead before time expires (this actually happens in one of the Drizzt books, as executed by one of the main characters). There's plenty of possibilities.

Might as well ask why a Goodly being has any spells that can harm other people. Sometimes, its necessary for the greater Good.
For me, I'd say there are multiple ways to reach the same end goal, especially since I am aware of multiple different interpretations and takes on Undead, rather than have Good aligned deities empowering evil spirits because the Monster Manual is inflexible.
And that's great... for your table if you're so inclined to run things that way. However, that is not the default assumption of the game. Saying "I don't want to use the default assumptions of the game" is cool; no one is forcing you. Trying to pass off your fanon as actual canon isn't.

The books are "inflexible" (they're really not) because D&D fans overwhelmingly voted in favor of having more of this kind of story and lore and in world monster psychology along with physiology. Again, you don't have to use the default lore at your table, but that doesn't change that its still default lore.
 

Enchantment, as it specifically targets minds - what kind of minds do you tend to run into while adventuring? Usually commoners, quest givers and antagonists. For the enterprising dungeon builder, controlling their minions. You generally don't need to use magic against the former two types of people, and you generally want to leverage violence against the latter two. D&D generally is a poor game to mimic political games or helping people with mental illnesses.
This is actually exactly the crux of my personal uncomfortableness with it. I find the exact opposite, that the bolded are folks who these sorts of spells primarily do get used on, people who are otherwise relatively innocent bystanders, or at least, people you normally wouldn't take violent actions towards. At least when it's used on active foes, there's not the dissonance between your willingness to hurt them physically and assault them mentally.
 

This is actually exactly the crux of my personal uncomfortableness with it. I find the exact opposite, that the bolded are folks who these sorts of spells primarily do get used on, people who are otherwise relatively innocent bystanders, or at least, people you normally wouldn't take violent actions towards. At least when it's used on active foes, there's not the dissonance between your willingness to hurt them physically and assault them mentally.
And, yeah, that's understandably uncomfy. I can't say that's my experience, but I'm sure they're out there.

EDIT - I still don't think its quite the intent of the game to use it in such a way; the game kind of assumes that you're playing Big Dang Heroes. But I can see where people will abuse them. Of course, I've heard horror stories of people going on rampages and slaughtering entire towns too.
 
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And if we could mind control the Ankheg to turn back around, forget they saw us, and go the other way...that would be more evil than burning them all to death?

No, it wouldn't. But most of the enchantment spells specify they only work on Humanoids and many others specify they fail if they are used on a target with animal level intelligence. Fireball works on all targets. So, some of those spells are designed to only take the free-will away from sentient creatures. You would hopefully agree there is a difference between rat poison and human-specific poison, right?

You sure looked like you were saying, or implying, that death was morally a lesser evil than mind control because it didn't remove free will. Otherwise what is the point of arguing about free will when the theme was "is this inherently more evil than that?"

Go back. Reread mellored's post. They didn't say that evocation was evil. They said that evocation removed free-will. I responded to that idea. I've said this about three times. You aren't scoring any points here, you are misinterpreting what I said, at least twice after I've clarified.

And, let's just make something clear. Only one school of magic is ACTUALLY officially called out as Evil. Necromancy. So this entire thing of trying to prove that Enchantment is no more evil than evocation is kind of pointless.
 

No, it wouldn't. But most of the enchantment spells specify they only work on Humanoids and many others specify they fail if they are used on a target with animal level intelligence. Fireball works on all targets. So, some of those spells are designed to only take the free-will away from sentient creatures. You would hopefully agree there is a difference between rat poison and human-specific poison, right?
Ha you chose to use those animals for your example so it's kind disingenuous to say now "doesn't count" instead of just saying OK turn it into a humanoid group. Is it more or less evil to burn them all alive than to mind control them briefly into forgetting they saw you and turning them back around the other way?

Go back. Reread mellored's post. They didn't say that evocation was evil. They said that evocation removed free-will. I responded to that idea. I've said this about three times. You aren't scoring any points here, you are misinterpreting what I said, at least twice after I've clarified.
I am not scoring points here, THE PURPOSE OF THE FREE WILL DISCUSSION WAS TO DISCUSS WHAT'S EVIL OR NOT. It wasn't an end in itself.

And, let's just make something clear. Only one school of magic is ACTUALLY officially called out as Evil. Necromancy. So this entire thing of trying to prove that Enchantment is no more evil than evocation is kind of pointless.
And yet you chose to engage in that discussion. And I am saying consistently evocation to burn stuff alive is at least as evil as mind controlling those same things.
 

I do think its worth mentioning too that most people find that physical distress is preferable to mental or spiritual distress. There was apparently a psychological study or something about it. I vaguely remember that from college.

Anyways, my point is that its possible that many people will treat a violation of the mind as worse than a physical violation of any kind.
 

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