D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

[mellored]

I mean, give me the examples here. Do the math and show it. I am not saying you're wrong I am saying we're missing a key part of analysis here.

I did.

1d8+3 = 7.5 radiant
1d10 = 5.5 fire
7.5 / 5.5 = 1.36 more damage

And I simply suggest removing the mod and increase the scaling to d8.
And then you get...

d8 radiant (melee or range)
Vs
d10 fire
Vs
d12 poison

Harder to pick from that list.

 

[Neonchameleon]

What about dealing 36% more damage from levels 1-4?

What about it? All non-Tortle starting wizards and sorcerers have Dex 14-16 in my experience. Do you know how much more damage True Strike does than a crossbow with a Dex 16 wizard from levels 1-3? Zero points. Zip. Nada. Bupkiss. On a dex 16 wizard or sorcerer True Strike is literally worthless at range from levels 1-3 and unless you do a lot of juggling so you can drop the crossbow entirely and use your staff two handed is worth a single point of melee damage over simply shanking someone with a dagger.

If a Dex 16 wizard or sorcerer with +5 to hit and 1d8+3 damage with a light crossbow doing slightly more damage than a firebolt wasn't a problem for the past nine and a bit years I don't think it's a problem now. And if it is a problem? The problem doesn't lie with True Strike.

Not sure why you're this against reducing the damage a bit.

Because there is literally no way to "reduce the damage a bit" from levels 1-4 without simply gutting the spell by making it not work like weapon attacks. And by doing so making it objectively worse than a dex 16 wizard/sorcerer pulling a light crossbow, which means it is not fit for purpose. Which means the only freedom to reduce the damage you have is to reduce the d6 to d4.

Make it was a point lower than firebolt, with a much better damage type and usable in melee. That's a decent choice.

So is keeping it as is, far faffier to use than firebolt.

 

[mellored]

On a dex 16 wizard or sorcerer True Strike is literally worthless at range from levels 1-3

What about it?

You could say the same for shillelagh, magic stones, and pack blade.

Also, radiant damage isn't nothing.

Because there is literally no way to "reduce the damage a bit" from levels 1-4 without simply gutting the spell by making it not work like weapon attacks.

You sure?

The attack uses your spell casting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity

 

[Neonchameleon]

What about it?

You could say the same for shillelagh, magic stones, and pack blade.

And are you making the argument that they are overpowered?

Also, radiant damage isn't nothing.

It's fairly marginal. That said fire damage is the second worst damage type.

You sure?

The attack uses your spell casting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity

Which means you are making it strictly worse than the double 16 build. You are IMO creating problem of consistency here while solving literally nothing.

If 1d8+3 damage from a light crossbow isn't a problem then this isn't a problem. If it is a problem then fixing it here is not actually fixing the problem.

And you seem to treat lugging around a large clunky ammo-limited two handed thing just to cast cantrips as a non-cost. I emphatically disagree and expect the overwhelming majority other than of the most combat min-maxed wizards and sorcerers to spec out of it at level 5 if they took it in the first place (which is exactly what happens with crossbows now except the min-maxed ones level up and suddenly all drop them). It does completely change the baseline damage of bards however. It also allows characters that started with crossbows to keep using them without falling completely off the pace.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

All I have to say is: I want to see this done to ALL of the spells!

Heck, I don't even really care if they wind up more balanced than they were in 2014 (though that would be nice) but I'd love to see them differently balanced. Just so we see some other spells being used. I'm tired of the usual group.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Evocation Wizard: Shocking Grasp will do 7.2 average while True Strike will do 6.6. Figuring in a 60% hit chance at level 5.
That same evoker will be doing 8.4 with fire bolt at range or 5 to multiple targets with Acid splash.

It is a good spell for Bladelocks, as well as Bards and Non Dragon Sorcerers but it is not jaw dropping.

 

[Kurotowa]

I'm going to disagree here. Some Dance Bards are going to go dex primary, some cha primary, and some are going to try to be balanced. Cha primary dance bards (and possibly balanced ones) are going to like true strike - even if they don't get to use it on opportunity attacks.

It's not a question of stat priority, it's a question of feature compatibility. A majority of Dazzling Footwork doesn't work with it. You can't True Strike with an Unarmed Strike, only a weapon, and the bonus attack from Agile Strikes doesn't benefit from True Strike's "Attack with your caster stat" effect even if the triggering action did. So it's a situation where you'd be throwing out the heart of the subclass to use it, at which point why even bother.

As for pre-2024 subclasses, I'm sticking to a policy of judging 2024 material only in the context of itself. Mixing and match pre and post revision material is obviously going to happen, at least at first, but there are enough weird results that have to get hammered down that I'm not using it as a measuring stick.

 

[Kurotowa]

It is a good spell for Bladelocks, as well as Bards and Non Dragon Sorcerers but it is not jaw dropping.

It's a terrible spell for Bladelocks. Bladelocks already get the core effect, melee attacks with your caster stat, from Blade Pact. That only leaves the +xd6 at higher levels bonus, and to get that a Bladelock has to sacrifice their Extra Attacks. Which is not a favorable trade. The only use case for Bladelocks is if you have War Caster, you can squeeze a little extra damage out of an Opportunity Attack.

 

[mellored]

Which means you are making it strictly worse than the double 16 build.

Better for a cantrip to be useless for one particular build, then overshadow the other cantrips.

And I'm meeting you half way.

Magic attack roll, but 1d8+dex damage.

And you seem to treat lugging around a large clunky ammo-limited two handed thing just to cast cantrips as a non-cost

pretty sure your double 16 build is already doing that.

And if your in a campaign where weapons are hard to find, then you just invalidated a lot of classes.

 

[mellored]

Evocation Wizard: Shocking Grasp will do 7.2 average while True Strike will do 6.6. Figuring in a 60% hit chance at level 5.
That same evoker will be doing 8.4 with fire bolt at range or 5 to multiple targets with Acid splash.

Potent Cantrip would still apply to True Strike.