D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Gammadoodler]

Monks are the ONLY class that relies on raw stats for skills. Casters have magic to supplement. Rogue, Ranger, Bard, Artificer have Expertise. Barbarians have Primal Knowledge and Fighters have Tactical Mind. Paladins are the closest to the monk's situation, but they're still half-casters, with all that implies, with Detect / Locate X and Command magics at minimum, and their steeds as pseudo-familiars.

Meanwhile, walking on water, the closest thing to an exploration feature of the Monk, is a level 9 feature. That's end game for 95% of games, and doesn't see play a lot at this point, especially when most water walking needs the entire party to pass, not just one person. So, no, its not really a niche if its super rare.


Assuming you can drag enemies. That still butts up against Carrying Capacity rules, which require strength. Ignore them if you wish at your table, but they're not RAW and ignoring the rules is not consistent across tables. And, frankly, making multiple unarmed attacks to push/shove/etc is something everyone can do. Its just that the monk gets to do them for the first time. That's not making them special, its bringing them up to the basic level everyone else is already at.

Plus? Other martials have weapon masteries now. So, they're pushing, tripping, etc as a part of their normal damage. The monk is not. The monk can do one or the other while fighters, barbarians and paladins are doing both at once.

Primal Knowledge on the Barb seems to be roughly equivalent to Monks grappling using Dex, no?

 

[Clint_L]

I would like to see WotC add back in a few of the current ribbon abilities, to keep the class's unique flavour. Timeless body and the ability to astral project at high levels seldom saw use, but were cool to have. In general, though, I think this update makes a monk very useful to have in the party as I think it was always envisioned: a hard-hitting skirmisher. They now have the tools, especially enhanced survivability and maneuverability, to really fulfill that role. And can absolutely off-tank if needed.

But we'll see once it's been play tested. I can't wait to try all this stuff out on mine...especially deflect attack.

 

[shadowoflameth]

I can't say I'm unhappy to see the monk lose Weapon Mastery as it was already tangled - and what it gets is mostly good. And using Dex for trip and push is just a nice QOL improvement.

The big thing is the improved bonus actions. Now a level 2 monk can unarmed attack, dash, or disengage as a bonus action without spending a Discipline (formerly Qi) point or even needing to make a main action attack. Huge improvement. And if you spend a discipline point you either get a second extra attack, to disengage-and-dodge, or to dash-and-disengage. And a 1/day recharge of discipline points on initiative is nice.

Deflect Attacks now works on melee attacks - which is huge.

Stunning Strike does damage when the creature saves as a consolation prize - again nice.

I think the level 1-6 (assuming a good subclass) monk is now good. And the new bonus action rules even give an answer to what a monk can do that a scimitar and shortsword fighter can't; they can use the Defense action and make an attack (with their bonus action) on the same turn, giving them more survivability when they chose.

Level 10 now has a needed buff - when you spend a ki point for Flurry of Blows you get two extra unarmed attacks not just one. (Plus the free one). This is good. I'm slightly concerned about levels 7-9 being soggy and situational in the wake of monk damage being pegged back by getting less use from Extra Attack than people with bigger weapons (Monks being MAD having less chance to use the new good feats) - but this is a huge improvement over the way it was in 2014 when levels 7-13 were all soggy and monk subclasses included the old Four Elements.

Warrior of the Hand looks good.

My initial impression, The Ki Point cost removal and changes to Step of the Wind and Patient Defense are good, and much needed.

The Bonus action attack is good and it gives the Monk options in melee that only the monk can get starting Early. i.e. a reason to not just be an unarmed fighter instead at levels 1-4. Dex for grappling is also good.

Deflect Attack is good but one of the abilities that I didn't think NEEDED improvement. It's game changing but they need to simplify if it's a melee attack, just make it a disarm and throw if there's a weapon to throw.

Stunning Strike I'm on the fence. It means you do less damage on a failed save. Force damage is nice though against foes that you couldn't otherwise hurt. Stunning Strike needs to not be once per turn though, it takes a consumable resource with or without the 'you get something' clause and shouldn't also have been decoupled from your, 'You attack a lot' Ability.

Proficiency with Martial weapons that have Finesse give them access to a good number of useful feats. But MAKE THE UNARMED STRIKE A MARTIAL MELEE WEAPON, FINALLY. (underlined three times).

The higher level abilities are strong. Mostly I'm happy. I still recommend a fighting style at 1st instead of just upping the damage die to a d6 but with the other changes here, I could play this and enjoy.

 

[Zaukrie]

I agree that putting things in level 9 or later means that the vast majority of tables don't see them in play.....maybe that changes, but I doubt it. I'd like to see monks walk on water and vertical surfaces earlier for sure. I also don't think it comes up much in play....or maybe give it to them sooner, but set a low limit to how high/far they can go (like 5 feet per level above 3, starting at level 3?).

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would put Martial arts die + dex bonus.
Then you can spend 1 disc pt to add monk level.
If you succeed then to reduce damage to 0, retaliation damage is free of disc cost. But damage is only one martial arts die, not two.

No. It is really easy to bypass? And die+mod is far too low when attacks can deal 35 damage

 

[Bolares]

Why are we saying deflect attacks is too strong? Monks are a class with low AC and a bad hit die for a melee fighter. Giving them a way to reduce damage once a turn is a good way to keep them viable in melee, and it is a flavourful design that plays different from other classes tanking options.

Also, it doesn't take that long for a rogue to outpace the monk in that regard.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I would like to see WotC add back in a few of the current ribbon abilities, to keep the class's unique flavour. Timeless body and the ability to astral project at high levels seldom saw use, but were cool to have. In general, though, I think this update makes a monk very useful to have in the party as I think it was always envisioned: a hard-hitting skirmisher. They now have the tools, especially enhanced survivability and maneuverability, to really fulfill that role. And can absolutely off-tank if needed.

But we'll see once it's been play tested. I can't wait to try all this stuff out on mine...especially deflect attack.

I'm kind of on the fence with respect to those ribbons. On the one hand I appreciated the flavor (while resenting that flavor abilities were provided instead of mechanical abilities). On the other hand, those ribbons tied Monks to a certain level of mystical flavor, that, now that they're gone, seems unnecessary and kind of limiting.

For me, the current, "preternaturally capable martial artist" flavor of the UA core class feels like a pretty solid base to work from and then the mysticism can get dialed up or down in the subclasses.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Monks are the ONLY class that relies on raw stats for skills. Casters have magic to supplement. Rogue, Ranger, Bard, Artificer have Expertise. Barbarians have Primal Knowledge and Fighters have Tactical Mind. Paladins are the closest to the monk's situation, but they're still half-casters, with all that implies, with Detect / Locate X and Command magics at minimum, and their steeds as pseudo-familiars.

Meanwhile, walking on water, the closest thing to an exploration feature of the Monk, is a level 9 feature. That's end game for 95% of games, and doesn't see play a lot at this point, especially when most water walking needs the entire party to pass, not just one person. So, no, its not really a niche if its super rare.

I don't necessarily disagree with your points. I'm just noting that I've never seen monks struggle with skills.

You could add a ki ability to increase skills, if you wanted, but I don't know if it is needed like it was for other classes.

Assuming you can drag enemies. That still butts up against Carrying Capacity rules, which require strength. Ignore them if you wish at your table, but they're not RAW and ignoring the rules is not consistent across tables.

If you count carrying capacity for dragging (which is not RAW) then no one can drag anyone. Most people don't have an extra 200 lbs.

And, frankly, making multiple unarmed attacks to push/shove/etc is something everyone can do. Its just that the monk gets to do them for the first time. That's not making them special, its bringing them up to the basic level everyone else is already at.

No, the best others could do is 2 attacks. Monk can do 5 attacks.

They become the best martial controllers with that.

Plus? Other martials have weapon masteries now. So, they're pushing, tripping, etc as a part of their normal damage. The monk is not. The monk can do one or the other while fighters, barbarians and paladins are doing both at once.

Fair, but you also have to consider the subclasses, which have pushing and ect baked into them

 

[Clint_L]

Deflect Attack is good but one of the abilities that I didn't think NEEDED improvement.

I strongly disagree on this point. The current ability is basically a ribbon. My level 9 monk has used it maybe...once? I watched all of campaign 2 of Critical Role and I am sure Beau used it fewer than ten times, going all the way to level 20. And spending a ki to follow up with a weak missile attack is basically worthless.

Whereas this new version gives the monk the survivability to fill the deep penetration niche that it seems intended for. It'll get used every fight. I think it's a game-changer. Plus a damage bump. It might be too good.

 

[Stalker0]

Why are we saying deflect attacks is too strong? Monks are a class with low AC and a bad hit die for a melee fighter. Giving them a way to reduce damage once a turn is a good way to keep them viable in melee, and it is a flavourful design that plays different from other classes tanking options.

so as an example, lets compare a lvl 3 monk to a Ogre, a nice solid "big hitter" at CR2. The ogre does 13 damage vs the monk's reduction of 3 (dex) + 3 lev + 1d10 = ~11.5. The rogue's uncanny dodge would reduce about 6.5.

So a monk with decent rolls can almost entirely soak the ogre's attacks (and that's before things like using the dodge action). That's a big change from what they had before.

Now is that really a problem? Personally I don't think so. Ultimately this new monk is VERY good against single targets. Aka if you have the scenario where your in a tight tunnel and its one melee creature versus your front line, the monk might actually be your best bet for that position. But their ability weakens dramatically versus 2+ creatures, in which case your high AC fighters or raging barbs tend to do much better.

So to me this new ability:

1) Provides a general amount of durability to the monk, which was sorely needed.
2) Gives them a fun niche as the "1 v 1 tank". You will get monk players who will enjoy that standoff with the one big monster, and soaking round after round of damage.


And I think that's all great. Again this ability gives monks a focused niche, but it doesn't overshadow other fighters in many other common combat scenarios.