D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Clint_L]

My initial thoughts (spoiler alert: I love these changes):

Level 1:
Removed weapon mastery: It was becoming too ubiquitous and monks have other stuff they can do. Plus, if you really want it you can play Open Hand. The previous version didn't really help monks anyway. Good.

Improved martial arts die: small but necessary damage bump. Good.

Unarmed strike as a bonus action: Yes - simpler. Makes sense. Good.

Dextrous attacks: Monks should be good at grappling and tripping opponents. Great.

Level 2:
Flurry of Blows: Functionally more or less the same, but cleaner. Good.

Patient Defence: Improved...though wanting to take both disengage and dodge at the same time probably won't happen that often. Good

Step of the Wind: Improved. Good.

Uncanny Metabolism: Addresses monk squishiness slightly, and monk resource starvation substantially. FANTASTIC!

Level 3:
Deflect Attacks: Someone on this subform pitched almost exactly this...and WotC made it even better by also buffing the counterattack to make it potentially worthwhile. This makes monks viable tanks in certain situations. They've transformed a more or less ribbon ability into a game-changer for monks. FANTASTIC!

Level 5:
Stunning Strike: They kept the nerf to one attempt per round, but added damage if the target saves. I agree with that nerf, but it's kind of weird to have the damage only happen on a save, because that can create situations where you would actually prefer the target makes its save. Unlikely, but possible. Why not just have the damage happen no matter what? Good (but a bit strange).

Level 10:
Heightened Discipline Flurry of Blows: Allows monks to keep up with other martial classes at the level where they previously started to really fall off. FANTASTIC!

HD Patient Defence: Builds on monk's improved survivability. Good.

HD Step of the Wind: Adds a great new tactical option. Great.

Self Restoration: This is really cool because it's a free effect. Great.

Level 13:
Deflect Energy: basically keeps Deflect Attacks viable at higher levels. Necessary. Good.

Level 15:
Perfect Discipline: fixes the weirdness of the current version and gives it at a lower level, so it might occasionally be useful. Good.

Level 18:
Superior Defence: I loved that monks go invisible and do Astral Travel, but this still makes them amazing tanks at high levels, especially when you consider the other stuff they got. Okay.

Level 20:
Body and Mind: Simple and always useful; just ask barbarians. Gives monks more damage, a higher DC, and a WAY higher AC. A level 20 monk would now be a stupid good tank.

My initial takeaway is that if you are a monk and don't love these changes, you are crazy. They address all of the flaws with the class and mostly turn them into strengths. If anything, this version of monk might be over-tuned. I haven't mathed it out yet, but it is shaping up very well, especially when it comes to survivability.

 

[Kurotowa]

Because, if they wanted ranged monk weapons, they would have kept Simple Ranged Weapons instead of specifying Simple Melee. It seems like its straight jacketing Monk into melee type, no ranged.

Pretty much this. Players who like to bash together custom character builds want more wide open options, but the Devs clearly want to keep the classes relatively focused on a specific flavor and character fantasy. Their narrative niche, as it were. And I can see why they consider this an important design pillar, especially for the vast majority of more casual and less mechanically minded players.

So no, it's not a value neutral proposition to leave in unintended properties when they're too far off-brand for a given class.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Removed weapon mastery: It was becoming too ubiquitous and monks have other stuff they can do. Plus, if you really want it you can play Open Hand.

Or just 1-level dip for it, but that does actually have a cost. Weapon mastery might also give some life back to Kensei.

though wanting to take both disengage and dodge at the same time probably won't happen that often.

Actually, getting past the enemy frontline (to try and stun their caster), and not dying when they come after you, is very tempting. Sure, you could use Deflect Attacks to defend yourself from one enemy, but if the Stunning Strike didn't land, you might want to save your reaction in case the caster tries to move away (giving you another opportunity to land a stun).

 

[Kurotowa]

Actually, getting past the enemy frontline (to try and stun their caster), and not dying when they come after you, is very tempting. Sure, you could use Deflect Attacks to defend yourself from one enemy, but if the Stunning Strike didn't land, you might want to save your reaction in case the caster tries to move away (giving you another opportunity to land a stun).

In that vein, I mocked up a Monk earlier using the new rules. One option that stood out to me is that Monks can now take feats that require a Martial Weapon proficiency, including Mage Slayer. Which is maybe redundant for breaking Concentration with Stunning Strike, but works without the extra DP cost. So that's certainly a role you could build for.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I forgot Mage Slayer is potentially amazing now.

 

[mellored]

Pretty much this. Players who like to bash together custom character builds want more wide open options, but the Devs clearly want to keep the classes relatively focused on a specific flavor and character fantasy. Their narrative niche, as it were. And I can see why they consider this an important design pillar, especially for the vast majority of more casual and less mechanically minded players.

So no, it's not a value neutral proposition to leave in unintended properties when they're too far off-brand for a given class.

Except expanding your niche is exactly what feats are for.

And there is no benefit for a hand crossbow over a shortbow until you take the feat.

Though... It may cause issues if they ever release new weapons.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Oh yeah, I love that the bonus action unarmed attack doesn't depend on the Attack action any more. It's not a big difference on most turns, but it just gives you so much more room to play around in.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I can agree to that, but removing mastery did not help this version of it.
This is better, but it would be even more so with mastery.

just take lvl1 fighter vs. lvl1 monk.
fighter gets a lot more.

This was always basically true.

But now? Now I will say, the Monk has one thing at level 1 no one else does. Dodge action, bonus action attack.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would much rather have deflecting attacks than weapon materies. Weapon masteries serve to give a class utility options and tactical choices. The monk always had those, so adding masteries, without creating unarmed masteries would be, as crawford said, "a hat on a hat" and a clunky secondary hat at that.

Meanwhile, deflect attacks helps with one of the majors problems with the monk, it's survivabillity.

So to me, this suggestion is taking an inportant balancing feature just to give the monk the shinny (but mostly superfluous) new thing.

Agreed. Deflect attacks is AMAZING.

 

[Mephista]

Daggers give monks a 20' ranged option.

Hand Crossbow + feat makes it 30'.

I don't see any problem with that.

Because its evidence that the hand crossbow is an oversight rather than intention and will likely be changed. Its all about enforcing a class role and a class fantasy, really. Otherwise, why bother with any restrictions on weapons at all?