D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[mellored]

It feels like it will be very strong at low levels, balanced between levels 5-10, and become less and less useful as you level up from there. So I agree there are some potential scaling issues.

I think this new version of the monk will be an absolute beast at low levels.

Yea, I'm leaning that way too. When enemies only have 1 attack, and you can completely negate it. That's more than strong.

I mean, a raging Barbarian will hit for 2d6+6 (13)
And you negate 1d10+8 (13.5)

So better than even odds you take 0 damage from the heavy hitter. You wouldn't just win a 1v1. You will dominate it.


Though keep in mind, your AC scales. Starting at 16 but going to 20, ( 25 with the capstone). So I'm ok if deflect attacks scales a little slower.


I'm currently leaning to
Level 1:
Martial Arts die + level.
+Dex at level 5
+Wis at level 11.
*Capstone adds +4.

 

[shadowoflameth]

I strongly disagree on this point. The current ability is basically a ribbon. My level 9 monk has used it maybe...once? I watched all of campaign 2 of Critical Role and I am sure Beau used it fewer than ten times, going all the way to level 20. And spending a ki to follow up with a weak missile attack is basically worthless.

Whereas this new version gives the monk the survivability to fill the deep penetration niche that it seems intended for. It'll get used every fight. I think it's a game-changer. Plus a damage bump. It might be too good.

That's fair. It is a minor ability. The flavor of snatching an arrow out of the air is a fun thought. but in play doesn't turn the tide. I like deflect attack, I keep thinking of deflecting a melee attack successfully and taking the weapon away to throw at someone, or deflecting and unarmed strike and throwing the enemy. Really though, if you deflected missiles with the same reaction until the end of the current term, that would help because it would be useful against more than one attack. In any case, I agree that Deflect Missile shouldn't cost a Ki point. It should just be something the monk can do.

 

[tomedunn]

To be clear. No one is saying to remove it.

Just that the number might be a bit too high. I haven't done the math, so I don't really have an opinion on that yet.

I ran the numbers using official 5e monsters from my database and the average damage reduction from Deflect Attack is very similar to the average attack damage for CR appropriate monsters. This means a monk will get to redirect a monster's attack roughly 50% of the time on average (more often against weaker monsters and less often against stronger monsters). It also means the damage reduction for Deflect Attack is roughly twice that of the rogue's Uncanny Dodge.

The monk I used here starts with a +3 Dexterity modifier, which increases to +4 at 4th level, +5 at 12th level, and +7 and 20th level.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I will take this moment to remind people that the team does always state that they will adust numbers for balance after the survey results. So I wouldn't let the fact of the number matter as much as "are we good with deflecting melee attacks"

Which I am. And being able to use the deflect to 0 about half the time means it will at least come up

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It feels like it will be very strong at low levels, balanced between levels 5-10, and become less and less useful as you level up from there. So I agree there are some potential scaling issues.

I think this new version of the monk will be an absolute beast at low levels.

I actually thought about increasing the scaling to (prof bonus) *(martial arts die). So it starts at 2d6 and goes up to 6d12.

Compared to 1d10+dex+monk level, that does not sound half bad.
Lets check by comparing the min - max (average)
I also added new+ (with added dexterity)

Level 3:
old: 7 - 16 (11.5)
new: 2 - 12 (7)
new+: 5 - 15 (1)

Level 5:
old: 10 - 19 (14.5)
new: 3 - 24 (13.5)
new+: 7 - 28 (17.5)

Level 9:
old: 15 - 24 (19.5)
new: 4 - 32 (18)
new+: 8 - 36 (22)

Level 11:
old: 17 - 26 (21.5)
new: 4 - 40 (22)
new+: 9 - 45 (27)

Level 13:
old: 19 - 28 (23.5)
new: 5 - 50 (27.5)
new+: 10 - 55 (32.5)

Level 17:
old: 23 - 32 (27.5)
new: 6 - 72 (39)
new+: 11 - 77 (44)

Level 20:
old: 28 - 37 (30.5)
new: 6 - 72 (39)
new+: 13 - 79 (46)

Comparing those numbers, you see that the old one is more powerful at low levels and the new one at high level. The new one has a way bigger span. Is this a good thing? Normally I´d say: no. But in this case I think it is a yes. Because to use the attached retaliation attack you need to reduce damage to 0. So if you get hit by big attacks, where it is actually really useful to be able to retaliate, I´d say, I´d take the risk.

New+ is probably a bit too much at mid level (5 to 10).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I ran the numbers using official 5e monsters from my database and the average damage reduction from Deflect Attack is very similar to the average attack damage for CR appropriate monsters. This means a monk will get to redirect a monster's attack roughly 50% of the time on average (more often against weaker monsters and less often against stronger monsters). It also means the damage reduction for Deflect Attack is roughly twice that of the rogue's Uncanny Dodge.

View attachment 334132

The monk I used here starts with a +3 Dexterity modifier, which increases to +4 at 4th level, +5 at 12th level, and +7 and 20th level.

One sees, that it starts too high at low levels. So replacing the d10 by martial arts die should make sense. And maybe I´d reduce it to half monk level. we are stil speaking of reducing 20 damage per round on average. But I am really split here.

 

[mellored]

I ran the numbers using official 5e monsters from my database and the average damage reduction from Deflect Attack is very similar to the average attack damage for CR appropriate monsters.

Do you have the number of attacks by level?

 

[mellored]

I actually thought about increasing the scaling to (prof bonus) *(martial arts die).

I wouldn't use Proficiency bonus.
Because multiclass exsist.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I wouldn't use Proficiency bonus.
Because multiclass exsist.

Yes. That is correct. This is why I hesitated. Also having that much of free damage reduction feels just too much.

Maybe the trick indeed is only adding monk level when spending a di point. So you can reduce martial art die h dex for free. And then get a bonus of 3 to 20 and retaliation if you spend the point. Since you know how much damage you need to reduce, di points are never wasted by accident. And the retaliation power stays equal. And at will reduction is not insane.

Especially when you considser that at level 17 (i think) the monk has the option to gakn resistance to (nearly) all damage.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Do you have the number of attacks by level?

I'd also be curious to see how close average monster attack damage is to median monster attack damage.