D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Stalker0]

Yes, I was going with averages. On average, the monk using flurry can do very good damage at low levels. They can almost keep up with a raging barbarian, even. For a couple rounds.

But my post was actually focused on survivability, which you don’t address.

I did address it, throughout this posts I have noted the monk's either lesser AC and/or HP, which he has traded in for much greater damage than the fighter. That's the niche, the monk at low levels is a glass cannon, but its a cannon nonetheless.

However, since you mention the barbarian lets bring them into the party as well and see how our 1st level barb does in this orc scenario.

The barb does have a consumable resource at 1st level unlike the monk or fighter. However, at 2 per day and with the new 10 minute limit I think its reasonable to use rage for most 1st level fights, so we shall here.

The barbarian has a 16 str, 16 con, and 12 dex we will say. While they get unarmored defense I think this barb will go for scale mail at 1st level for the best bang for the buck of 15 AC. Since the focus was on their damage we will go two-handed over a shield for this example.

AC: 15
HP: 15 (effectively 30 HP if we assume rage is fully useful in the fight).
Monk HP: 9
Attack: Greatsword +5, 2d6 + 5 damage (3 damage on a miss).

So our damage against the orc is.

12 * .6 + 19 * .05 + 3 * .35 = 7.2 + .95 + 1.05 = 9.2
Our Monk does: 14.95
For context over 4 rounds of combat the monk will kill 3.98 orcs, the barbarian will kill 2.45

Our monk has +1 AC and does 62.5% more damage than a Barb using its limited resource for the day. Our barb has 233% more hitpoints.

So again our glass cannon motiff holds up. The barbarian is the ultimate in hp survivability, but the monk does significantly more damage (it should also be noted that the monk has vex on their handaxe and so will get in a few more advantages at this level as well, but it only applies to the 1d4 damage so not reaaally worth the calculation right now).

 

[WanderingMystic]

So in my opinion if they made a few small changes then then monk could be a viable option.
1: Grant di along with patient defense at level 1.
By doing this your monk feels a bit more unique at level with what they can do at level 1 compared to every other martial class out there.

2: Make di equal to your wis bonus + level so you are starting off with 3-4 di.
This makes those early levels run smoother and lets you feel like you can actually use your abilities.

3: Change bonus unarmed attack and flurry of blows to just be part of making the attack action.
This eases your action economy so that you can make the attacks you need to keep you viable in combat and still use some of your other abilities.

With these few changes you can still make the extra unarmed attack and doge or disengage as a bonus action to keep you defensive despite not having a great ac. Also you will have more di earlier so you can actually do any of this rather than just going through a fight only punching people because you ran out of points in your first combat.

 

[Stalker0]

However, since you mention the barbarian lets bring them into the party as well and see how our 1st level barb does in this orc scenario.

Ok lets take things one step further, and see how much the greater offense actually helps in defense. So lets put a monk vs an orc, and a barb vs an orc. Aka its a party fight and the meleer has an orc all to themselves while the rest of the party is dealing with other orcs or something.

Our monk kills: .997 orcs per round.
Our barb kills: .613 orcs per round

Orc against monk: deal .6 * 9.5 + .05 * 16 = 5.7 + .8 = 6.5 damage per orc per round.
Orc against barb: deal .65 * 9.5 + .05 * 16 = 6.175 + .8 = 6.975 damage per orc per round.

Monk vs Orc
Round 1: Takes 6.5 damage, kills .997 orc.
Round 2: Takes 6.5 * (1-.997) = .0195 damage, kills orc
Total: 6.5195 damage taken

Barb vs Orc
Round 1: Takes 6.975 damage, kills .613 orcs
Round 2: Takes 6.975 * (1-.613) = 2.699 damage, kills orc.
Total: 9.674 damage taken (4.837 damage with rage)

So here is where you could make the argument for how the greater survivability helps with the offense. The monk is killing orcs faster its true but the barb ultimately has lost only a fraction of its hp in comparison. Really the scenario depends more on what the orcs are attacking. If the meleers are "tanking" the orc as in this scenario, than the barbs better tanking shows through over its inferior damage. The monk would shine more if the orc was attacking the squishy wizard lets say, as killing that orc will give the wizard the best chance to survive.

 

[OB1]

So in my opinion if they made a few small changes then then monk could be a viable option.
1: Grant di along with patient defense at level 1.
By doing this your monk feels a bit more unique at level with what they can do at level 1 compared to every other martial class out there.

2: Make di equal to your wis bonus + level so you are starting off with 3-4 di.
This makes those early levels run smoother and lets you feel like you can actually use your abilities.

3: Change bonus unarmed attack and flurry of blows to just be part of making the attack action.
This eases your action economy so that you can make the attacks you need to keep you viable in combat and still use some of your other abilities.

With these few changes you can still make the extra unarmed attack and doge or disengage as a bonus action to keep you defensive despite not having a great ac. Also you will have more di earlier so you can actually do any of this rather than just going through a fight only punching people because you ran out of points in your first combat.

I like this a lot. I'd probably give Step of the Wind rather than Patient Defense at level 1, and would make Flurry give a single unarmed strike off the attack action but still require a bonus action for another unarmed strike, limiting your max attacks to 3 if you still want to use SotW or PD.

And I'd still move the Hand flurry 'masteries' to all monks and then give Hand the ability to use all weapon masteries with their flurry of blows.

 

[Asisreo]

Truly the playstyle of a Monk.

I dunno. If I've watched any kung fu movies, the protagonist seems to always be tactically intelligent and resourceful. Besides, monk doesn't mean anything anymore in terms of fantasy, really. Since now they're just "elusive skirmisher" rather than "eastern-movie inpired action hero."

I feel like this speaks to how Weapon Masteries are not where they need to be that it's better for the Monk in these scenarios to just rely on weapons than their class features. It really needs some sort of "activation" of some sort rather than just "on-hit".

I disagree. Weapon Masteries will end up being huge sacrifices in damage at higher levels and making them any harder for the monk to use only exacerbates that issue.

 

[Stalker0]

I like this a lot. I'd probably give Step of the Wind rather than Patient Defense at level 1, and would make Flurry give a single unarmed strike off the attack action but still require a bonus action for another unarmed strike, limiting your max attacks to 3 if you still want to use SotW or PD.

The trick as I just showed in my example above is the monk is already doing PLENTY of damage at 1st level....honestly a good bit more than other martial classes.

The only thing you could argue that they might need a bit more of is survivability...but that's it.

 

[OB1]

The trick as I just showed in my example above is the monk is already doing PLENTY of damage at 1st level....honestly a good bit more than other martial classes.

The only thing you could argue that they might need a bit more of is survivability...but that's it.

Yes, Flurry would still come online at level 2, it's only SotW you get at 1, leaning into the skirmisher feel of the class (double your speed, go in and attack once, then move away). At level 2, with FoB coming off the attack action, you can skirmish for 2 attacks (spending 2 di) or stand your ground for 3 (spending 1 di). With the few extra Di points for your Wis bonus, you'll be able to do dope monk stuff at least a couple of times every encounter w/o a short rest at early levels.

 

[mellored]

IMO

Step of the wind at 1, with 1 ki.
+5' of movement at 1.
Grapple has shove are Dex based at 1.

Also, we shouldn't be forcing monks to stand still and trade blows. You're ignoring half their abilities doing so.

Punch something and run away. Use your subclass darkness, reach, or open hand techniques to avoid OA's. If they range attack, deflect it.

I bet a well played level 3 monks could beat a level 3 fighter. You just can't expect them to stand still.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I bet a well played level 3 monks could beat a level 3 fighter. You just can't expect them to stand still.

It'd be entirely down to initiative and dice rolls, I would suggest. Particularly at level 3, where one or two good rolls could end the fight.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I dunno. If I've watched any kung fu movies, the protagonist seems to always be tactically intelligent and resourceful. Besides, monk doesn't mean anything anymore in terms of fantasy, really. Since now they're just "elusive skirmisher" rather than "eastern-movie inpired action hero."

Unarmed Combatant.

That is what monk means in terms of fantasy. If you are just going to be running around shooting people, then you need a different class with abilities that don't focus on unarmed strikes. The monk has abilities that make for an excellent mobile sniper, it would be cool, but I'd rather make that a subclass than lose the unarmed combatant.