D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Stalker0]

Doing a damage comparison for level three seems like some pretty extreme P-hacking.

I disagree. 3rd level is a common starting point for many campaigns, as people often see levels 1-2 as the "training wheels" period where your character is still growing into their abilities, and level 3 (which often includes your subclass) is when the character becomes realized.

I think its a reasonable datapoint, and more impactful to most games than a level 1 datapoint for example.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As I said, with extremely limited exception.

And monks' mechanics have no intrinsic link to perception.

Edit: your argument is a bit like saying that barbarians are good because they make good archers since they get a movement speed increase, AC that can care about dex and the Ancestors Barb can taunt using a bow. It's not exactly wrong, but it avoids the bigger picture in a way that seems..forced.

Edit 2: and for the record, I think a comparison of a dex barb archer vs a monk archer would generally be unkind to the monk.

Barbs are str, so using a bow is not as optimal. They also don't have wisdom secondary.
So even then I'd have a bow as barbarian for the chance of encountering flying enemies or shooting at far range if necessary, but a monk actually naturally has the stats.

If those two preconditions are the same for you however, I don't know how to discuss this any further...

 

[mellored]

I disagree. 3rd level is a common starting point for many campaigns, as people often see levels 1-2 as the "training wheels" period where your character is still growing into their abilities, and level 3 (which often includes your subclass) is when the character becomes realized.

I think shadow and elemental monk do much better at 3rd.

Both have a 10 minute effect for 1 ki. Ones that allows you to melee skirmish like crazy.

Mercy and open hand are still pretty ki restricted at 3.

 

[tetrasodium]

I disagree. 3rd level is a common starting point for many campaigns, as people often see levels 1-2 as the "training wheels" period where your character is still growing into their abilities, and level 3 (which often includes your subclass) is when the character becomes realized.

I think its a reasonable datapoint, and more impactful to most games than a level 1 datapoint for example.

The basement rats aren't going to notice the values being focused on with that p hacking though. Neither are the zombies or goblins outside of town. A second attack at an active target is dramatically more valuable than an extra point or so of damage to an already dead opponent.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Barbs are str, so using a bow is not as optimal. They also don't have wisdom secondary.
So even then I'd have a bow as barbarian for the chance of encountering flying enemies or shooting at far range if necessary, but a monk actually naturally has the stats.

If those two preconditions are the same for you however, I don't know how to discuss this any further...

A barb can be strength, and a lot of their abilities reward strength (in the same way that monk abilities reward melee combat).

But nothing stops them from going dex instead and enjoying the benefits of better AC and hp (since their unarmed AC keys off dex and Con) and their naturally faster movement and martial weapons proficiency (hello longbows)

It's a one for one comparison. We take the small subset of features in the class that benefit a ranged build, ignore all the stuff that is specifically designed to work in melee, and claim the class is good because it can work as a ranged combatant.

When what we could do is acknowledge that the class is not designed to function as a ranged combatant, and that it works is more a result of the general strength of ranged combat and less the result of effective class design.

 

[Clint_L]

All this discussion of ranged combat and monks is a sideshow. If you think the answer to monks' problems is "ranged attacks" then you're not even in the conversation. If you think that monks are already good enough in melee then just state that. It feels like a lot of these arguments are predicated on a notion that monks are fine as melee combatants but proponents are having trouble making that that argument directly, so are deflecting to discussing ranged attacks. Which is actually kind of monk-like (deflecting+ranged attacks), now I think about it, so fair play.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's a one for one comparison. We take the small subset of features in the class that benefit a ranged build, ignore all the stuff that is specifically designed to work in melee, and claim the class is good because it can work as a ranged combatant.

I'd really like to know who is the "we".

I for my part did not claim that the class is good as it is currently. I just listed a few things that are often overlooked:

- Better ranged capabilities than you might expect.

- Solid wis and dex, two stas that are helping in being silent and perceptive.

- very subtle look. Pass as commoner and still be fully armed.

In a game where you just try to hit as hard as you can and not be hit too much, those assets are not worth a lot. In our game, my gnome monk rocked.

With a staff, a sling and with subterfuge.

 

[Mephista]

My problem with the monk is that several of its abilities feel bad.

Like, monk feels too fragile in early levels. Giving them better AC or HP so its not as bad. They're still melee characters, not ranged.

It feels bad that Weapon Mastery doesn't apply to Unarmed Attacks. If I have a build that doesn't use weapons, its a dead feature, and puts us behind. Like, one of the benefits of Unarmed Attacks was supposed to be the option to deal damage, grapple, push or knock prone. Weapon Mastery gives all that for free now, with no loss of damage. The whole point of people asking to boost unarmed damage from d4 to d6 at start was to put monks on the same starting point as other martials in 2014. Now, with Weapon Masteries, we're behind again. You could take Tavern Brawler, but that's a feat tax and leaves W.M. as just sitting there.

Feels bad that, if I use Step of the Wind or Patient Defense, I lose half to a two-thirds of my damage output for the turn. Why not let us keep that extra attack from Martial Arts? That way, it feels less like 1 di AND -1 attack to activate them.

Everything is still short rest based. We need options for better control over short rests without messing with the timing of everything, and, no, once a day refresh at level 7 is not enough; most games end around 8-11, so that's practically end game; we need it at lower levels. Especially now that people can sacrifice a 1st level slot for more Wildshape/Channel Divinity/Bardic Inspiration, which means more people will be willing to push ahead without short rests.

It feels bad that wall running is still locked away at level 9. Doing iconic wuxia stuff so late is boring. Balancing on twigs and parkour should not be end-game abilities for a monk.

It feels bad that we're unlikely to see good monk treasures or feats. It feels bad that we feel forced to invest in ASI every time while others get excited about their new abilities.

It feels bad that, for the most part, the monk is done growing as an attacker after level 5 save for more di points and the occasional subclass.

Subclasses (other than Open Hand) actually feel good for the most part. Its really only the main class that is feels bad.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My problem with the monk is that several of its abilities feel bad.

Like, monk feels too fragile in early levels. Giving them better AC or HP so its not as bad. They're still melee characters, not ranged.

It feels bad that Weapon Mastery doesn't apply to Unarmed Attacks. If I have a build that doesn't use weapons, its a dead feature, and puts us behind. Like, one of the benefits of Unarmed Attacks was supposed to be the option to deal damage, grapple, push or knock prone. Weapon Mastery gives all that for free now, with no loss of damage. The whole point of people asking to boost unarmed damage from d4 to d6 at start was to put monks on the same starting point as other martials in 2014. Now, with Weapon Masteries, we're behind again. You could take Tavern Brawler, but that's a feat tax and leaves W.M. as just sitting there.

Feels bad that, if I use Step of the Wind or Patient Defense, I lose half to a two-thirds of my damage output for the turn. Why not let us keep that extra attack from Martial Arts? That way, it feels less like 1 di AND -1 attack to activate them.

Everything is still short rest based. We need options for better control over short rests without messing with the timing of everything, and, no, once a day refresh at level 7 is not enough; most games end around 8-11, so that's practically end game; we need it at lower levels. Especially now that people can sacrifice a 1st level slot for more Wildshape/Channel Divinity/Bardic Inspiration, which means more people will be willing to push ahead without short rests.

It feels bad that wall running is still locked away at level 9. Doing iconic wuxia stuff so late is boring. Balancing on twigs and parkour should not be end-game abilities for a monk.

It feels bad that we're unlikely to see good monk treasures or feats. It feels bad that we feel forced to invest in ASI every time while others get excited about their new abilities.

It feels bad that, for the most part, the monk is done growing as an attacker after level 5 save for more di points and the occasional subclass.

Subclasses (other than Open Hand) actually feel good for the most part. Its really only the main class that is feels bad.

The monk maybe needs to be able to use the mastery feature of a weapon for their unarmed attacks. Like the fighter can switch around.

 

[Stalker0]

hehe I've made the argument a long time ago that the core "martial artist" should just be a rogue subclass. Rogues already do it well, give them some good martial arts manuevers and such as subclass abilities, their core class already takes care of everything else. They have speed, evasion, can hit "pressure points" with sneak attack, have expertise for athletics and acrobatics if you want to go that route, can disengage and skirmish, I mean literally they have the package.