Playtest: Primal Power

[Sir Brennen]

Not being a subscriber, I can't read the article, but IMHO untyped bonuses are bad, and the more types there are, the more we get back to the problems of 3E. I'm cool with a feat which provides a Feat Bonus which stacks with itself to some degree, but one that grants an untyped bonus which therefore stacks with other feats is very much a no-no; one which keys a new bonus type is disappointing.

With regard to Tribe of the Swift Jaguar and the stacking, from what I've read here, there does need to be some restriction: imagine throwing 20 or so kobolds against the PCs when all the kobolds have taken this feat. +1 per doubling, maybe? (+1 for 1, +2 for 2, +3 for 4, +4 for 8 etc). Or maybe the maximum bonus could be limited to a particular stat? So while your party of 8 may all have the feat, only the character with a +8 modifier on that stat is going to get the full bonus; the character with a +2 modifier will only get +2. The minimum should be +1, of course.

Further, Tribe of the Swift Jaguar seems to be a feat which duplicates a warlord's class power, as noted earlier with the character with the +22 initiative and so should not stack with that but be there to make up for the lack of a warlord in the party.

All of these feats have a max +5 limit, so no worries about hordes of ultra-fast reacting kobolds.

Since 4E has reduced the "I go first = I win" scenarios significantly, I don't have any problems with characters having high Init's, either.

I do have some reservations about untyped bonuses, though. Designers have to be wary of any other feats/powers/abilities created in the future which give such bonuses, lest we get situations like 3E with, for instance, skills that have a score which exceeds the normal DC of a level appropriate check, making such checks automatic.

Making these a bonus type of "feat" has its own drawbacks, as now you've discouraged players from taking them if they already have a feat giving a similar bonus. "What? I've already got a bonus for Stealth. Why should I take a feat just to give you another +1?"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

^^^ Monsters don't get feats in 4e...

The max bonus you can get is +5.

The thought I am having is RPGA/LFR organizations...and I don't see a limit of 1 of these feats...

i imaginc swift jag and enduring Mtn on a party of 9th level characters...

 

[Squizzle]

I do have some reservations about untyped bonuses, though. Designers have to be wary of any other feats/powers/abilities created in the future which give such bonuses, lest we get situations like 3E with, for instance, skills that have a score which exceeds the normal DC of a level appropriate check, making such checks automatic.

Making these a bonus type of "feat" has its own drawbacks, as now you've discouraged players from taking them if they already have a feat giving a similar bonus. "What? I've already got a bonus for Stealth. Why should I take a feat just to give you another +1?"

My preferred solution is making the initial +1 from the feat untyped, and the rest (the 0-4 from everyone else taking the feat) a feat bonus.

 

[Rechan]

I realized that druids make slightly better summoners. Simply because druids (controllers) have more HP because they have a Leader's HP. Therefore, their summoned critter is going to have more HP.

 

[Caliber]

All of these feats have a max +5 limit, so no worries about hordes of ultra-fast reacting kobolds.

Since 4E has reduced the "I go first = I win" scenarios significantly, I don't have any problems with characters having high Init's, either.

I do have some reservations about untyped bonuses, though. Designers have to be wary of any other feats/powers/abilities created in the future which give such bonuses, lest we get situations like 3E with, for instance, skills that have a score which exceeds the normal DC of a level appropriate check, making such checks automatic.

Making these a bonus type of "feat" has its own drawbacks, as now you've discouraged players from taking them if they already have a feat giving a similar bonus. "What? I've already got a bonus for Stealth. Why should I take a feat just to give you another +1?"

You could always retrain your +X feat bonus Feat for the Tribal Feat your buddy wants to take, with no loss to you (maybe) as long as you're around him. Probably wouldn't be too hard, really.

More generally, re: breaking the maths, I saw an idea on rpg.net yesterday suggesting that instituting hard caps on how high a bonus you can get would be a better solution to setting up these complex X stacks with Y but Z stacks with everything chains. Maybe scale the max bonus you can have from feats/powers/items/etc with level? It's an interesting proposal.

 

[Bagpuss]

The +5 initiative bonus is not a big deal in isolation. After all, they could all have taken Improved Initiative and got a +4 bonus to initiative each. It's the ability to stack the bonuses from Tribe of the Swift Jaguar with the bonus from Improved Initiative or Quick Draw that I think is potentially problematic.

Skill bonus I'm not so fussed about to be honest but the Tribe of the Bloodied Spear +1 to attack and damage with OA. Most of the bonus from feats related to OA are already untyped.

 

[Simplicity]

Druid summoning is good.

Tribal Feats. Terrible. It's not that I think that the feats are that overpowered, it's just that I don't think they're interesting. It's like they took the team feats of 3.5 phb and made them even more boring. Do we really need more skill bonus feats? How does that add to the game in any way?

If they want synergy, they should make the feats grant an encounter/daily power that requires expending a standard action from each PC with the feat. The number of PCs who expend the action determine the effect of the power. That way, players need to figure out how to get their PCs next to the target to unleash hell. Kind of like Lord of the Rings online Combo attacks, really.

 

[Scribble]

If they want synergy, they should make the feats grant an encounter/daily power that requires expending a standard action from each PC with the feat. The number of PCs who expend the action determine the effect of the power. That way, players need to figure out how to get their PCs next to the target to unleash hell. Kind of like Lord of the Rings online Combo attacks, really.

I think tribal feats are pretty cool... But this idea is also cool.

 

[Rechan]

Skill bonus I'm not so fussed about to be honest but the Tribe of the Bloodied Spear +1 to attack and damage with OA. Most of the bonus from feats related to OA are already untyped.

The problem with suping up OAs is that they require the DM to have an enemy incur an OA.

Therefore, just how often that bonus comes into play relies on the DM.

 

[Akaiku]

The problem with suping up OAs is that they require the DM to have an enemy incur an OA.

THIS

All these opportunity attack feats and powers would be much cooler if my gms even once provoked an opportunity attack in a fight without merely overlooking the placement on the map. Adding more reason for them to never do it is sometimes just pointless.