D&D 5E Playtest This: Red Dragon

[Blackbrrd]

So, wait... a bunch of HP is no fun, but a super high AC is?

Nah

Mage armor/Shield are easily dispellable because of the Dragons low caster level, so it's more of a "how can the AC get so high?". I used to describe it as if there were some external protection so it was a bit easier to guess what was up.

 

[MortalPlague]

Isn't this basically a large pile of HP? A bit like the solo monsters from early 4e that made for boring fights?

Keep in mind that PCs can dish out a lot of damage in 5th Edition. A L5 Rogue with sneak attack adds 6d6 damage on a successful attack. Once every other round, maybe, but that's a lot of damage. A L5 fighter can add 2d8 damage to an attack should he choose. With 5 or 6 PCs, I don't think the dragon's hit points will become all that grindy.

I assume the claw/bite/spit fire/breath weapon are attack types the dragon can choose between? In which case the damage output is really low. If it's the other way around it's a really high damage output.

They are attacks he can choose between. Each item listed under the "Actions" heading requires an action. Damage numbers are still a stab in the dark right now, so I might be erring on the low side of things. 5th Edition characters, however, are more fragile than their 4th Edition counterparts; it's no fun to be stomped in the first two rounds.

Btw, a dragon with the same amount of HP as this one has a 12d10 breath weapon in 3e. Just check out the adult red dragon with 253 hp here

Sure, but that's 3rd Edition. This is 5th Edition. The numbers should be different. Dragons in 3rd edition had far fewer hit points than this at the appropriate level.

In other words, I think a Dragon should have some tricks up it's sleeve. A red dragon should be able to set the ground on fire to shape the battlefield, create a fire storm or something else interesting. Pure attacks that do damage is a bit meeeh.

Lighting the ground on fire and the like would certainly be cool. This dragon is not quite the "I only deal damage" monster you've painted him to be, however; His bite lets him grab a target (and carry them off, if need be). He can make two claw attacks while moving around the battlefield. He can breathe fire in a cone. He can fling a target from his jaws, he can throw them 100 feet! At another character! He can swallow a character whole!

Also, [MENTION=66111]Cybit[/MENTION], you could be right. I erred a bit on the lower side, seeing as someone who gets swallowed is pretty well screwed. Maybe 4d6 acid instead?

 

[MortalPlague]

I'd let a dragon do the classic claw/claw/bite though.

He had that in my first draft. When I gave him the ability to grab with his bite, I had to move bite to a separate attack.

 

[Blackbrrd]

As you mentioned, getting the hp/damage part of the monster correct now is probably not really interesting. It's not really what's bothering me about the dragon. What is bothering me a bit is how a fight with the dragon would actually pan out.

Take a party, having crept quietly into the dragons lair, fearing for their lives, then suddenly, around the corner of the cave the dragon attacks! It does a bite attack, misses and it's the players turn.

... something as big and fearsome as a dragon should be shouldn't rely on 1-2 attacks per round. It quickly get's anticlimactic if it gets 2-3 bad rolls in a row. It's why the Dragons in 4e usually has some reaction attack, some minor attacks or the Dragon from WotBS splits into four pieces and attack seperatly.

In 3e the Dragon could usually select between:
Dragon breath (nearly impossible to save against at appropriate CR or slightly over, for massive damage)
Full melee attack (2xclaws, 2s, 1xbite, 1x tail all with a really high chance to hit and decent damage)
Fly by attack
Spells

Personally I like it when big beasts like the dragon has a nice mix of big attacks, breath weapon attacks, reactions and some one-off big stuff like a fire storm or splitting into mirrors or something in that direction.

 

[RangerWickett]

How about this tweak?

Crested Dragon
Huge Dragon
HP 120

Traits

Destructive Ferocity: The crested dragon has 2d12 of combat superiority dice, which refresh at the end of its turn. It can spend these dice to add damage to its attacks. Additionally, it can spend dice as follows:

• Batter. Spend 1 die to make a claw attack.
• Devour. Spend 2 dice to make a bite attack against a Medium or smaller creature already grabbed by the dragon's bite. On a hit, the creature is killed.
• Fling. Spend 1 die to make a ranged attack with a Medium or smaller creature already grabbed by its bite or claws, at a range of 10/50. It makes an attack, +5 to-hit, 1d12 to both the thrown creature and the target.
• Knockback. Spend 1 die to knock back 10 feet a creature it strikes with its claws.
• Snatch. Spend 1 die to grab a creature it strikes with either bite or claw.

Impenetrable Hide: Whenever the crested dragon would take damage, prevent 10 points of that damage. If an attack critically hits the dragon and manages to deal any damage to it, the attack creates a chink in the monster's armor, and it loses this resistance.

On its turn, if the dragon is in its hoard it can choose not to move. Instead it can roll in the treasure and fill the weak spot in, regaining this resistance.


Claw: +5 to hit (reach 10 ft), 1d8+6 damage.

Bite: +5 to hit (reach 10 ft), 2d6+6 damage.

Tail: +3 to hit (reach 15 ft), targeting up to three adjacent creatures within range, 1d6+3 damage.

Spit Fire: +3 to hit (range 50/150), 1d10+4 fire damage.

Breathe Fire: The dragon breathes fire in a 30 foot cone. Any creature in the area takes 3d10 fire damage and catch on fire, taking ongoing 5 fire damage. They can attempt a Dex save (DC 13) to reduce the damage by half and not catch on fire.

Additionally, the area the dragon breathed on becomes superheated. Until the end of the dragon's next turn, any creature that ends its turn in that space takes 5 fire damage. Flammable unattended objects in the area automatically catch on fire and burn normally.

After using this attack, the dragon cannot breathe fire again for 3 rounds.

 

[MortalPlague]

Destructive Ferocity: The crested dragon has 2d12 of combat superiority dice, which refresh at the end of its turn. It can spend these dice to add damage to its attacks. Additionally, it can spend dice as follows:

That's a really good way to model a multi-action solo. Expertise dice seem like a great way to do it. I have two questions, however. Is there a reason he's regenerating them at the end of his turn as opposed to the start? Also, can he use those dice to make off-turn attacks? (In which case, the end of turn refresh makes a lot of sense)

Impenetrable Hide: Whenever the crested dragon would take damage, prevent 10 points of that damage. If an attack critically hits the dragon and manages to deal any damage to it, the attack creates a chink in the monster's armor, and it loses this resistance.

On its turn, if the dragon is in its hoard it can choose not to move. Instead it can roll in the treasure and fill the weak spot in, regaining this resistance.

I like the DR and loss of DR here, it models the armor very well. And the fact that he gives up his move instead of an action. However, having this trigger only on a critical hit means it won't come up very often. I'd like to find a way for players to trigger this effect, perhaps by declaring their intent to make a weak spot in lieu of dealing any damage? Model it like a called shot, perhaps?

Additionally, the area the dragon breathed on becomes superheated. Until the end of the dragon's next turn, any creature that ends its turn in that space takes 5 fire damage. Flammable unattended objects in the area automatically catch on fire and burn normally.

This I like a great deal. It really lets the dragon carve up the battlefield.

RW, you always come up with some fantastic stuff for dragons. I am not disappointed.

 

[mcmillan]

I like the intent of the weak spot, though your original idea seemed off. Having a weak spot that allows the player to attack with advantage would result in them being more accurate, but not doing more damage. Personally, I think even if they know where the weak spot is, hitting that spot specifically should be harder than just a generic hit, but if they do it hurts a lot.

RangerWickett's suggestion seems to model this better, though understand wanting it easier to trigger than a crit. My initial idea was your tirgger, but maybe let them choose to attack with disadvantage and a hit deals damage as if it were a crit.

 

[RangerWickett]

I think the crit thing is actually unnecessary. Maybe, "If an attack deals 10 or more damage after this reduction..."? How easy is it to deal 20 damage with one attack in D&D Next?

 

[keterys]

First level rogue can hit for 20 (3d6+4). Or fighter (1d10+1d6+4), for that matter.

3rd level warlock (4d6)...

 

[pemerton]

Not quite what I was getting at. They're trying to use more natural language to explain out how things work. Saying "The dragon may breathe once every 1d6 rounds" is more in line with that. "Recharge: 6" is explained in purely game mechanic terms.

So couldn't you word it as "After the dragon breathes fire, roll 1d6 at the start of each of its turns; on a 6, it can breathe fire again."

That seems no less naturalistic then "The dragon cannot breathe fire again for 1d6 rounds."