Playtest Update

[GX.Sigma]

But it's a valid concern, if part of the reason Invisibility is balanced with a Dex check is that the former is spike and the latter is more averaged out.

I think Invisibility will require a Dex check. It only conceals you visually, which was already the easy part of stealth. A thief will likely have higher Dex than a wizard (and, if he's a sneaky sort, he'll have skill training and skill mastery), so a thief will be better than an invisible wizard. In fact, a visible thief will be exactly as good as an invisible thief unless there's bright light around (since the thief can hide in shadows).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I think Invisibility will require a Dex check. It only conceals you visually, which was already the easy part of stealth. A thief will likely have higher Dex than a wizard (and, if he's a sneaky sort, he'll have skill training and skill mastery), so a thief will be better than an invisible wizard. In fact, a visible thief will be exactly as good as an invisible thief unless there's bright light around (since the thief can hide in shadows).

According to the current rules, invisibility just makes you count as heavily obscured, so that you can make a Stealth check without cover or darkness. A wizard who casts Invisibility on himself makes the same roll to hide as would a halfling thief rogue standing behind a chihuahua, but without the Skill Mastery. But of course if nobody's close enough to hear or smell or feel (or taste?) the wizard he automatically succeeds.

 

[Klaus]

'tain't a horrid idea. My only concern with that is that this means forgoing other specialties -- which might be fine or maybe not. If I need to give up being a "Defender" or "Sharpshooter" to do this...feats might not be the best silo for this.



IIRC, Mearls mentioned that they were paying attention to this -- to make sure Invisibilty and Knock and the like were balanced in effect with what someone could accomplish with a d20 roll.

But it's a valid concern, if part of the reason Invisibility is balanced with a Dex check is that the former is spike and the latter is more averaged out.

A variant Spells Per Level Table, then?

 

[GX.Sigma]

According to the current rules, invisibility just makes you count as heavily obscured, so that you can make a Stealth check without cover or darkness. A wizard who casts Invisibility on himself makes the same roll to hide as would a halfling thief rogue standing behind a chihuahua, but without the Skill Mastery. But of course if nobody's close enough to hear or smell or feel (or taste?) the wizard he automatically succeeds.

Exactly. An invisible character must still move silently to avoid detection, and a Thief is way better at moving silently than a Wizard (and the Thief will probably have stuff to hide behind anyway), so a Thief is better than an invisible Wizard. Niche protected.

An invisible Thief would be even better (in those situations where he doesn't have anything to hide behind), so it enforces teamwork. The Wizard can't be a better thief than the Thief, but he can make the Thief a better thief.