Please cure my 4e illiteracy

[Derren]

Why do you assume that level 1 characters and level 20 characters are looking through the same chest full of junk?

Why do you assume they don't?
Requiring the PCs to only find level appropriate challenges is silly. A city wall they want to climb doesn't grow 30 ft, becomes slippery and catches fire just because the PCs gain 20 levels over a few months.

And when you your reasoning it makes more sense that the difficulty is determined by what the PCs want to do and not what levels the PCs are.

 

[The Little Raven]

Why do you assume that level 1 characters and level 20 characters are looking through the same chest full of junk? Shouldn't it be easier to find the valuable things in a goblin's rickety box compared to an elder black dragon's chest full of hidden compartments, intricate locks, false baubles, etc?

Exactly. Page 42 assumes you will be challenging characters with appropriate-level challenges, not that the exact same task with the exact same conditions suddenly becomes harder to do simply because the character is higher level.

 

[Imaro]

Why do you assume that level 1 characters and level 20 characters are looking through the same chest full of junk? Shouldn't it be easier to find the valuable things in a goblin's rickety box compared to an elder black dragon's chest full of hidden compartments, intricate locks, false baubles, etc?

I'm not trying to be snarky here but... why should the rules assume that everything in my world changes to accommodate the level of the PC's in some uses of a skill but not in others, it's not consistent... I could ask why do they assume a "narrow or unstable surface" doesn't scale differently as you go up in levels, but it's always DC 20(according to the PHB DC's)? I'm not arguing either is right or wrong, just that it should be consistent.

 

[malraux]

Why do you assume they don't?

Because in most games (IME) as you go up in level, you tend to fight tougher things, end up in more alien locations, and deal with more complicated obstacles. Most 20th level characters are not still fighting level 1 goblins. I agree that if they do, then yes, it should be a static DC. But for most games, the level of the challenges is roughly a function of the level of the party.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Thanks for all the replies.Is it always three failures?

Could you have a 4/2 skill challenge, or a 2/4 skill challenge?

The errated version uses always 3 failures, but a variable amount of success. The unerrated increased both required successes and failures.
In the adventure P2: Demon Queen's Enclace, they also use different ways to use skill challenges.
I would not be surprised if the DMG 2 will cover some variants (but I also would not be surprised if not )

Guidelines on making ad hoc rulings that are written into the rules are still rules by any definition with which I'm familiar. Broad rules subject to interpretation by the referee, but still rules nonetheless.

And if ad hoc DCs don't map well to DCs established in skill descriptions, well, I can see how that disconnect might bother people.

I like rules light systems that rely on referee adjudication, but there is a burden on the referee to be consistent. In more rules intensive systems, then the both the rules and the ref need to be consistent. In my experience, of course.

It's an improvisation tool, not a tool for perfection or completeness.

After a quick glance seems like a nice set of variant rules and I would even go so far as to say it's a shame no examples like that are in the DMG because then maybe some people wouldn't have the problems they have with them. Also let me say I admire the fact that instead of denying there is a problem (perhaps just for some people) you actually did something about it rather than just deny it. I'll be looking over those in depth a little later.

Hey, I didn't make anything genius, I basically just changed one word (instead of character level use challenge level)! The rest was me just rambling.

 

[Imaro]

Exactly. Page 42 assumes you will be challenging characters with appropriate-level challenges, not that the exact same task with the exact same conditions suddenly becomes harder to do simply because the character is higher level.

So how do the DC's in the PHB fit into your assumptions?

 

[Imaro]

Because in most games (IME) as you go up in level, you tend to fight tougher things, end up in more alien locations, and deal with more complicated obstacles. Most 20th level characters are not still fighting level 1 goblins. I agree that if they do, then yes, it should be a static DC. But for most games, the level of the challenges is roughly a function of the level of the party.

You realize this totally discounts a sand-box style game.

 

[malraux]

I'm not trying to be snarky here but... why should the rules assume that everything in my world changes to accommodate the level of the PC's in some uses of a skill but not in others, it's not consistent... I could ask why do they assume a "narrow or unstable surface" doesn't scale differently as you go up in levels, but it's always DC 20(according to the PHB DC's)? I'm not arguing either is right or wrong, just that it should be consistent.

But it does (to an extent). A narrow or unstable surface is one challenge level. But at higher levels, the surface gets very narrow, or becomes narrow and unstable or all three.

As I see it, the fixed dcs in the PHB are just pre-defined examples of the page 42 stuff, while also affixing the DCs to descriptive constraints.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Exactly. Page 42 assumes you will be challenging characters with appropriate-level challenges, not that the exact same task with the exact same conditions suddenly becomes harder to do simply because the character is higher level.

So how do the DC's in the PHB fit into your assumptions?

I can't speak for The Little Raven, but I would assume they describe "level-independent" challenges.

You could use "reverse" engineering to determine at what levels these challenges constitute too-easy (auto-success), easy, moderate, hard or impossoble (auto-failure) challenges, which might guide your adventure or encounter design. (See also my blog.) For example, if you figure that the 30 ft wide chasm will require a DC 30 Athletics check to jump, you'd gather it's unlikely that 1st level PCs will jump over the chasm (though they might use a rope to clear it. Which probably means the Chasm is a limiter in combat, but can be overcome during the adventure). 30th level PCs might do exactly that. Of course, none of these thoughts stand in the DMG.

 

[malraux]

You realize this totally discounts a sand-box style game.

To an extent yes. But not completely, unless sandbox games have you fight high level stuff at low level or low level stuff at high level to a large extent.

edit: actually, the more I think about it, no I don't. Unless you are intentionally misreading what I'm writing or putting words in my mouth, I don't see how it does at all.