Please define 'swingy'

[Cadfan]

"Swingy" is just a term used to describe combats where randomness plays a greater role than some might like. Its contrast is probably "grind." The only real difference is probably the number of die rolls needed to resolve complex questions of game resolution. If you think of combat in an RPG as a random walk between two extremes of "win" or "lose," the only difference is how many steps it takes to get to the end of the walk. The swingy game only takes a few steps, and each step can move you dramatically across the scale. The grindy game takes a longer walk, and each step contributes less.

The advantage of the swingy game is that there's a sense of risk all the way up until the last moment. The advantage of the grindy game is that there's less of a chance that randomness will render your strategic work moot. The disadvantage of a swingy game is that you can do everything right and then lose anyway because the die fell in a particular fashion. The disadvantage of the grindy game is that you can do everything right and ensure the inevitability of victory several rounds in advance of its arrival.

Examples:

Swingy: 3e- Combat with an enemy spellcaster. You roll initiative, and either win or lose. If you win, you hit him with a save or die spell that could kill him instantly, or you charge him with a fighter geared up to do more damage in a single round than he has in hit points. If he wins, he does the same thing to you.

3e- Your Paladin has been trading blows with the enemy Blackguard for several rounds. You were ahead, until he rolled a critical hit with a smite good attempt using a greataxe that's had its critical hit bonuses magically enhanced, and you took more damage than you originally had in hit points.

Grindy

4e- You're in a fight with a group of monsters who rely on a particular tactic to deal their damage- they have two lightly armored, low hit point monsters who deal a lot of damage with ranged spells, and two heavily armored, high hit point monsters who deal low damage but protect the spellcasters. You've figured this out, and used your tactics and your powers to slip past and kill the spellcasters. Now you've just got these two guardian monsters to kill. Their damage is laughably low as a group without their key members, and you'll win eventually, but its going to take time.

 

[delericho]

A common comment about 4e combat is that the combat's result can be determined several rounds before the combat's end - the result becomes apparent, but it takes a little while to get there.

A "swingy" combat often involves powers or abilities that can make a huge, unexpected difference. This can allow one side to pull out a victory even when they appear to be badly losing.

I find swingy combats to generally be more exciting, and more deadly, than non-swingy combat.

This, exactly.

In my very first 3e game (after the PHB was out, but not even the DMG), the party were engaged in a fight with a bunch of kobolds, and going down to a horrible and messy defeat.

The barbarian rolled two crits in a row. Suddenly, the fight was over, and the PCs had won.

That sort of rapid shift in fortune is much less likely in 4e, where the math has been changed to be much more predictable. Unfortunately (for 4e), it was precisely that event that saw us fall in love with 3e, and that sort of shift is basically a 'must' for our group.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Swingy combat tends to reward luck more than good planning, and bad planning is less punished than bad luck.

The "swingy" part is how the situation changes considerably after individual actions or random elements. For example - in one round the entire party is hurting, at low hit points and there are still 4 "healthy" monsters swinging Great Axes at them. But three failed Will Saves later, three of the opponents are stunned for a few rounds and only one is still active.... But then, this opponent scores a critical hit against the Fighter, kiling him, cleaves into the Rogue, uses his second iterative attack too and kills the Rogue, then great cleaves into the Wizard, knocking him unconcious, leaving only the Cleric to deal with the situation...

 

[Runestar]

Another example of swinginess would involve all those 3e monsters with nothing but SoD abilities, such as the medusa, mindflayer or bodak.

I have no idea how encounters with these sort of monsters can end well. Against the medusa, everyone is just going to shut their eyes and suck up a 50% miss chance penalty while swinging blindly. Against the bodak, either everyone makes their saves and win with no resources expended, or someone dies, or the whole party dies from a consecutive run of bad luck. Either scenario is anticlimatic and frustrating. There is no strategy or finesse involve, just plain luck.

You want to be funny - take a gorgon and give it ability focus and heighten breath weapon. This increases the save DC of its breath weapon to 26. The average fighter needs a 16+ to succeed, and the wizard fails on any roll which is not a natural 20.

 

[Tuft]

After losing a swingy game to a friend, you say "Let's make that the best two out of three!"

After losing a grindy game to a friend, you say "Let's add some handicap next time to make it more interesting."

 

[Herobizkit]

Thanks all for the clarification. I always took swingy to mean "grind" - as in, the fight is predictably won but the monster still needs to be reduced to 0 HP to win, ergo swing, swing, swing 'til it dies. Guess I was wrong all along.

 

[Herobizkit]

You want to be funny - take a gorgon and give it ability focus and heighten breath weapon. This increases the save DC of its breath weapon to 26. The average fighter needs a 16+ to succeed, and the wizard fails on any roll which is not a natural 20.

That is hilarious. I've found that adding the Half-Fiend template to an Ogre Mage is a Mean Thing to do.

I've also found that adding Regeneration to kobolds (Trollbolds, as I call them) is great fun for driving veteran players crazy, especially once they realize they've been killing the same pack over and over...

 

[Woas]

I don't know what swingy is. How about schwingy?

 

[Kraydak]

Swingy combat tends to reward luck more than good planning, and bad planning is less punished than bad luck.

I tend to find the opposite. Swingy combat allows for large rewards for good tactics, while grindy game minimizes them. In a 3e combat that was going to last for 3 rounds at best, getting a surprise round is gold. In a 7 round 4e combat, a surprise round is much more meh.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Sleep and similar spells in 3e weren't "Oh crap, we're in a tight spot, time to do something awesome." They were "Well, that was short." That's not fun.

Hmm. I must be doing something wrong, then, because that's exactly how Sleep was in the last 3e campaign I played in where it saw any use. We were a party of elves (with typical high Dex and low Str), and it was only when our melee types were getting totally pwned by hulking brutes that our wizard would break out the Sleep. Several times, it was the only reason we survived.

And that campaign is typical of my 3e experiences.