Please direct me to the right place for prestige class history...

I am looking for a thread that covers the history behind the creation of all the prestige classes. Primarily I am looking for discussion about the pros and cons of this. I think (I've been away from D&D for nearly 25 years) this is a new development, isn't it? I do remember a lot of such classes cropping up in issues of the Dragon back in the 80s.

What I am really after is some kind of discussion which encapsulates how the prestige classes got to be where they are now... I am looking for people who say "there are too many of them and a, b, and c are why they are bad for the game" and for people who say "they are good for the game because of x, y, and z."
 

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My version:

Prestige Classes were invented as a way for characters to advance in a generally somewhat more focused and/or themed way than the generic classes.

The original group of Prestige Classes were intended to be a model from which DMs could draw to make their own campaign-specifc Prestige Classes.

Generally speaking, Prestige Classes were meant to be campaign-specific and involve some role-playing for entry in addition to the prerequisites as the PC becomes a member of some group with each Prestige Class.

In reality, they have become nothing more than another option, often abused in the never-ending quest for more character personal power. Some characters even have three, four or more Prestige Classes, which is clearly abusive when one considers the original purpose.

My opinion is that the "generic" prestige classes should not be allowed at all by any DM, but each one should be validated first for haivng a good "fit" into the campaign world and there should be an orginization and politics connected up with membership into most of them.

I think this way is the most fun and least subject to abuse - thoough it also involves the most work from the DM.
 

what do they say about creativity?

What do folks out in the community have to say about the impact of prestige classes upon individual creativity? It seems to me that just having a fighter with a hand-picked selection of spells, skills, and feats makes the individual. I would rather just have my base fighter template and carve him or her into something that is my own versus saying a'la Ralph Wiggam: "I'm a Viking!" I remember the Cavalier template from the 80's from Dragon magazine. I thought "wow, that's a good way to cheat and get more powerful "legally" -- and I thought "why can't I just say I have a fighter that wears plate mail and rides a horse with a lance? I also do good deeds, I hold open the portculis for the damsel. So, I'm a Cavalier, too." That's how it was done in the old days—not to be an ageist, of course, but it seems that to have umpteen prestige templates layed before one sort of stunts one's creative growth. I mean, wouldn't you rather read the book before watching the movie? What if my vision of Conan wasn't Arnold?

Forgive me if this argument has already been made, and for my rambling.

If it has, then am I correct in assuming that marketing pressures are the chief drivers behind the continued creation of even more specific prestige classes?

"Word on the street is that customers want more prestige classes."

"But we've already done this in the last umpteen books, boss."

"I know, go ahead and make up another 8 classes. They expect them. We are ahead of budget forecast, so don't screw with the formula, kid."

Is this anywhere near what actually goes on?
Thanks for bearing with this...
 

Artoomis said:
Generally speaking, Prestige Classes were meant to be campaign-specific and involve some role-playing for entry in addition to the prerequisites as the PC becomes a member of some group with each Prestige Class.

Yes and no. Campaign specific is too restrained. However, they were intended to be optional and certainly it was assumed that each DM would create their own prestige classes.

The original article describing prestige classes by Monte Cook (who rumor has it had insight into the DMG's designers intent) lists 4 types of prestige classes that were intended.

1) Give them what they want. The example here is a player who wants to specialize in the bow, even more than allowed in the core rules. So, Monte suggests creating "The Order of the Bow."

2) Define your organizations. This is the one I've heard many people claim to be "the original intent of prestige classes." This article shows it was just one of several directions they intended.

3) Describe your culture. Help give flavor to your cultures and races. Are your elves supposed to be the masters of magic? Create a prestige class for elves where they sacrifice other abillities for a focus on magic. Are the desert nomads supposed to be a hardy never die lot, create a class that allows them to get that reputation.

4) Make lame options exciting. Does your player want to focus on the whip? He will be disappointed with the core rules. Create a prestige class that allows him to focus on a whip and not be the first one down every combat, or the one the villians laugh at.

IMO, prestige classes were the 3E replacement for kits. Kits were generally complained about. In fact, largely for the same reasons prestige classes are complained about today, percieved poor balance in some. So, they took the concept (because they allowed the above directions to be addressed) and created requirements so PCs had to qualify for the "kit."
 

respontomovie2006 said:
What do folks out in the community have to say about the impact of prestige classes upon individual creativity?
Well my individual voice which is lost in the din of the community says that it's a great idea as initially conceived, did not receive ANY proper official followup from WotC until the publication of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting hardcover by which time it was too late to exert any further influence on their ACTUAL use versus their intended use. It also, however, goes in hand with the now well-established WotC penchant for enabling player empowerment without even mentioning the mere concept of DM's wanting, even needing to exert limitations.

They can still be used as originally envisioned - they just generally aren't and it shows in the discussion of characters as "builds" far outweighing discussion of characters as "concepts". Just MHO.
Forgive me if this argument has already been made, and for my rambling.
It's a point worth repeating if you ask me so no worries.
If it has, then am I correct in assuming that marketing pressures are the chief drivers behind the continued creation of even more specific prestige classes?
That, however, is not my impression. 3rd Edition was intentionally geared to directly counter the unnecessarily prohibitive structures of the rules. If people wanted to play Dwarven Paladins or hobgoblins with clerical spellcasting abilities then the rules should provide an ENABLING structure for that, however unusual those choices might be, rather than the rules specifically working to prohibit it because it IS an uncommon choice for which specific, sometimes extensive rules would otherwise have to be made under older editions.

However, in the void of further examples of their intended use as tools for the _DM_ to use in improving their campaigns overall, they became tools for the _player_ to use as an improved variation on the 2nd Edition concept of "kits". In short - a powergaming tool more than a campaign design tool. Not that there's anything inherently wrong or inferior with powergaming, but it really did destroy the capacity for them to be properly promoted again for their original intent rather than their subsequent practical application and that really IS unfortunate.

So, it's not market pressure at work but marketing itself. PrC's can be included as crunchy rules bits in published works without need to really properly work their usefulness into a CAMPAIGN. They need to merely whet the appetites of the increasingly common players who are simply looking for mechanical advantages with perhaps some vague roleplaying justification, rather than roleplaying uses that includes mechanical support.
"But we've already done this in the last umpteen books, boss."
THIS never stopped ANYBODY. :)
 



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