Cyber-Dave
Explorer
The title says it all. I am specifically looking for feedback regarding the new feats and the way my "Crack Shot" class interacts with the guns I am using...
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Please PEACH these 17th century related house-rules (related to firearms)...
- Thread starter Cyber-Dave
- Start date
Winterthorn
Monster Manager
Sorry I'm clued out, what's "PEACH"? i've seen it here and there over the years in post titles concerning D&D, but I've never seen an explanation - I assume it is an acronym?
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Okay, looking at them both. Will start with a stream of conciousness, and then circle back around when I know more to evaluate.
Starting with the House Rules:
Hmm, don't know any of these subclasses mentioned.
Strongly dislike language barriers in actual play. Something that should take up half a session of the entire campaign and then people should be able to move forward and play.
Firearms count as magic. So the finest mundane smith in the land can't make a blade or arrow to spit a demon's hide, but firearms can. I've got no mechancial problem with it, just checking the feel. To me, it seems like firearms are therefore either already "magic", or are outside the track (which would mean that magical firearms/ammo would probably not exist). Either way, I wouldn't treat them as other weapons when it comes to enchanting them.
As a side note, "counts as a magic item" is important enough to be a feature for a number of classes, usually earned around 6th or 7th. So that's not an insubstantial boost.
I don't know how heroic vs. gritty you want. With the languages it loojks like you really want to dive into the details and not do a heroic gloss over them, so: Pistol Whip and Buttstroke should be improvised weapons (so no proficiency without the feat). Same thing I'd require the appropriate proficiency for dagger/shortshort (and I guess spear for bayonet), not including it in the firearm proficiency.
Do you want misfire on pistol whips and buttstrokes as you have a chance to mess up the firing mechanism, dislodge primer, etc.
Ranged combat is already treated very nicely in 5e. Doing more damaging versions of existing ranged weapons makes that even more pronounced. Okay, they misfire on a 1 - carry several. Carrying several has a lot of historical precedents.
BTW, Halflings should be the premier artillerists in the world considering how Lucky reduces Misfire to 1/400.
Gunslinger Feat: Note that the "Loading" property doesn't mean what you think it means. By the PHB, it doesn't take any actions to load a weapon with the "Loading" property, so this feat actively makes you slower. What it does do (and this feat doesn't change) is restrict you to a single attack even if you would be allowed to make more.
I see where I think you want to go, but to do that you need to redo the Loading property. And that will also affect crossbows.
Okay, on to the Crack Shot document:
Grit has short rest, plus additional ways to get it back. Requires Wisdom, not normally a fighter ability score. Has my absolutely least favorite of the common triggers - killing blow. This is burn-it-at-the-stake level of hatred here. It encourages a party level of meta-gaming where you leave opponents just for one character to finish off, it gets in the way of who to attack that makes sense to the narrative. I could go on, but it just sucks. AND really, you've already got TWO other recovery mechanisms so I'm not going to waste my breath - just get rid of grit recover on dropping a foe. Heck, most thing just have the on-rest,
As a side note, I'm evaluating Grit in terms of point buy. If you roll or use some method where multiple high ability scores are common, then it gets too high too fast and change it to something like number of Trick Shots you have. I like that because it means you need to continue to advance in Crack Shot, you can't just multiclass in for 3 levels as a high level cleric and becomes super-grit rifleman.
Lightning Reload: Again, does nothing because that's not how the Loading weapon property works. If it worked how you seem to think loading works, it's not a good rule. Because Fighters can have up to 4 attacks, which means every round there misfire chance would be 1, 5, 9, 13 - statistically you'll lose several weapons to misfire per combat. In other words, it gets worse as you go up level.
Hemorrhaging Critical - umm, multiple attacks, critting on 19-20, doing +50% damage on crits, regaining grit on crits. That's very crit heavy. In play this would feel very swingy as a player.
I would need to do some more comparison, but looking at trick shots vs. the Arcane Archer's Arcane Shot, the Crack Shot gets roughly 3x the uses (2 vs. 5 + crits), but the Arcane Archer gets more power per shot. Between those it should even out in power.
That said, Hawkeye Shot and Vicious Intent should not be on the same class. Remove one, preferably Hawkeye Shot. Crits on 15-20, especially ones that have other effects on crit, just are outside 5e.
====
Conclusion: I think firearms will see use, they represent a power up over base 5e ranged combat. Misfire has no practical use as a balance mechanism once you can afford to carry a few weapons. You seem to have a definite idea what you want the Loading property to do which will need to be written up as a house rule, since the current feats and features that want to interact with it do not work with the PHB meaning of it.
Crack Shot needs some reevaluation, as mentioned above.
Starting with the House Rules:
Hmm, don't know any of these subclasses mentioned.
Strongly dislike language barriers in actual play. Something that should take up half a session of the entire campaign and then people should be able to move forward and play.
Firearms count as magic. So the finest mundane smith in the land can't make a blade or arrow to spit a demon's hide, but firearms can. I've got no mechancial problem with it, just checking the feel. To me, it seems like firearms are therefore either already "magic", or are outside the track (which would mean that magical firearms/ammo would probably not exist). Either way, I wouldn't treat them as other weapons when it comes to enchanting them.
As a side note, "counts as a magic item" is important enough to be a feature for a number of classes, usually earned around 6th or 7th. So that's not an insubstantial boost.
I don't know how heroic vs. gritty you want. With the languages it loojks like you really want to dive into the details and not do a heroic gloss over them, so: Pistol Whip and Buttstroke should be improvised weapons (so no proficiency without the feat). Same thing I'd require the appropriate proficiency for dagger/shortshort (and I guess spear for bayonet), not including it in the firearm proficiency.
Do you want misfire on pistol whips and buttstrokes as you have a chance to mess up the firing mechanism, dislodge primer, etc.
Ranged combat is already treated very nicely in 5e. Doing more damaging versions of existing ranged weapons makes that even more pronounced. Okay, they misfire on a 1 - carry several. Carrying several has a lot of historical precedents.
BTW, Halflings should be the premier artillerists in the world considering how Lucky reduces Misfire to 1/400.
Gunslinger Feat: Note that the "Loading" property doesn't mean what you think it means. By the PHB, it doesn't take any actions to load a weapon with the "Loading" property, so this feat actively makes you slower. What it does do (and this feat doesn't change) is restrict you to a single attack even if you would be allowed to make more.
I see where I think you want to go, but to do that you need to redo the Loading property. And that will also affect crossbows.
Okay, on to the Crack Shot document:
Grit has short rest, plus additional ways to get it back. Requires Wisdom, not normally a fighter ability score. Has my absolutely least favorite of the common triggers - killing blow. This is burn-it-at-the-stake level of hatred here. It encourages a party level of meta-gaming where you leave opponents just for one character to finish off, it gets in the way of who to attack that makes sense to the narrative. I could go on, but it just sucks. AND really, you've already got TWO other recovery mechanisms so I'm not going to waste my breath - just get rid of grit recover on dropping a foe. Heck, most thing just have the on-rest,
As a side note, I'm evaluating Grit in terms of point buy. If you roll or use some method where multiple high ability scores are common, then it gets too high too fast and change it to something like number of Trick Shots you have. I like that because it means you need to continue to advance in Crack Shot, you can't just multiclass in for 3 levels as a high level cleric and becomes super-grit rifleman.
Lightning Reload: Again, does nothing because that's not how the Loading weapon property works. If it worked how you seem to think loading works, it's not a good rule. Because Fighters can have up to 4 attacks, which means every round there misfire chance would be 1, 5, 9, 13 - statistically you'll lose several weapons to misfire per combat. In other words, it gets worse as you go up level.
Hemorrhaging Critical - umm, multiple attacks, critting on 19-20, doing +50% damage on crits, regaining grit on crits. That's very crit heavy. In play this would feel very swingy as a player.
I would need to do some more comparison, but looking at trick shots vs. the Arcane Archer's Arcane Shot, the Crack Shot gets roughly 3x the uses (2 vs. 5 + crits), but the Arcane Archer gets more power per shot. Between those it should even out in power.
That said, Hawkeye Shot and Vicious Intent should not be on the same class. Remove one, preferably Hawkeye Shot. Crits on 15-20, especially ones that have other effects on crit, just are outside 5e.
====
Conclusion: I think firearms will see use, they represent a power up over base 5e ranged combat. Misfire has no practical use as a balance mechanism once you can afford to carry a few weapons. You seem to have a definite idea what you want the Loading property to do which will need to be written up as a house rule, since the current feats and features that want to interact with it do not work with the PHB meaning of it.
Crack Shot needs some reevaluation, as mentioned above.
Cyber-Dave
Explorer
Thank you. That is all very helpful stuff. Give me a bit to mull it over and I will post changes made as a result of your feedback.
Cyber-Dave
Explorer
Winterthorn: Please Examine And Critique Honestly.
Cyber-Dave
Explorer
@Blue
So, based on your feedback, there were some elements I wanted to change:
1) I added a misfire quality to buttstrokes and pistol whips. (Your next range attack with the weapon will have a +1 misfire score).
2) I changed the wording of gunslinger so that it should now work with the existing loading rules (but still achieve my desired effect):
Gunslinger
Prerequisite: Trained in Slight of Hand
Thanks to extensive training with firearms, you gain the following benefits:
• When using an action to Attack with a firearm in which you are proficient, you may draw and fire a pre-loaded palm pistol, pistol, or dragon with any attacks you can make as part of that action. So long as you have a free hand, you are considered to be armed and wielding any loaded palm pistol, pistol, or dragon stowed on your person.
• As long as you are proficient in the firearm and it does not misfire, you may automatically stow a palm pistol, pistol, or dragon after you have fired it. A firearm stowed in this manner is unloaded.
• As long as you are not engaged in melee, you may use an action to pre-load up to 2 firearms or a bonus action to pre-load a single additional firearm with which you are proficient (drawing and stowing them as you load them). You must have two free hands to use this ability.
3) I changed the wording of "grit" as follows: You gain a number of grit points equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1). You regain 1
expended grit point each time you score a critical hit with a firearm. You regain all expended grit points after a short or long rest.
4) I changed the wording of Crack Shot's lighting reload so that it will work with the existing as written loading rules:
Starting at 7th level, at the start of a turn you may choose to ignore the loading property of a firearm you are holding for the remainder of the turn. If you do so, for the remainder of that turn the firearm’s misfire score increases by +4.
4) I want to make a change to hawkeye or vicious intent, but I'm not sure what to change as you seem to have misread something. Hawkeye doesn't increase your critical range; it lets you automatically score a critical hit when you attack and hit a surprised foe. Deadeye does increase your critical range, but it increases it to 18-20, not 15-20. Deadeye, Hawkeye, and Vicious Attack all give you a method by which you can increase your statistical damage dealt, but they do so in different ways. I wanted players to pick and choose how they wanted to deal their damage to give the class a bit of tactical depth. None of the powers are outside of the realm of powers already given to other classes (and are decidedly more limited than similar abilities based on a character's available grit). Could you go into a little more detail as to what the problem is (so that I can find a way to fix it)?
So, based on your feedback, there were some elements I wanted to change:
1) I added a misfire quality to buttstrokes and pistol whips. (Your next range attack with the weapon will have a +1 misfire score).
2) I changed the wording of gunslinger so that it should now work with the existing loading rules (but still achieve my desired effect):
Gunslinger
Prerequisite: Trained in Slight of Hand
Thanks to extensive training with firearms, you gain the following benefits:
• When using an action to Attack with a firearm in which you are proficient, you may draw and fire a pre-loaded palm pistol, pistol, or dragon with any attacks you can make as part of that action. So long as you have a free hand, you are considered to be armed and wielding any loaded palm pistol, pistol, or dragon stowed on your person.
• As long as you are proficient in the firearm and it does not misfire, you may automatically stow a palm pistol, pistol, or dragon after you have fired it. A firearm stowed in this manner is unloaded.
• As long as you are not engaged in melee, you may use an action to pre-load up to 2 firearms or a bonus action to pre-load a single additional firearm with which you are proficient (drawing and stowing them as you load them). You must have two free hands to use this ability.
3) I changed the wording of "grit" as follows: You gain a number of grit points equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1). You regain 1
expended grit point each time you score a critical hit with a firearm. You regain all expended grit points after a short or long rest.
4) I changed the wording of Crack Shot's lighting reload so that it will work with the existing as written loading rules:
Starting at 7th level, at the start of a turn you may choose to ignore the loading property of a firearm you are holding for the remainder of the turn. If you do so, for the remainder of that turn the firearm’s misfire score increases by +4.
4) I want to make a change to hawkeye or vicious intent, but I'm not sure what to change as you seem to have misread something. Hawkeye doesn't increase your critical range; it lets you automatically score a critical hit when you attack and hit a surprised foe. Deadeye does increase your critical range, but it increases it to 18-20, not 15-20. Deadeye, Hawkeye, and Vicious Attack all give you a method by which you can increase your statistical damage dealt, but they do so in different ways. I wanted players to pick and choose how they wanted to deal their damage to give the class a bit of tactical depth. None of the powers are outside of the realm of powers already given to other classes (and are decidedly more limited than similar abilities based on a character's available grit). Could you go into a little more detail as to what the problem is (so that I can find a way to fix it)?
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