Please rate Improved Sunder

[smetzger]

6.08 after 40 votes still #3

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

If Improved Sunder is overpowered, then it is because sunder is over powered. *sarcasm* I have no problem with it. It is a very powerful ability, but only if you have the desire and discipline to make constant use of it. I wouldn't use it, but if I did, I could make it very annoying for the DM. I gave it a 7.

If you use D20 books, like AEG's Dragons, then it cold be damn powerful with the feat in there that allows you to sunder natural weapons.

Edited to point out sarcasm. My wit, such that it is, tends to escape people.

 

[hong]

If Improved Sunder is overpowered, then it is because sunder is over powered. *sarcasm* I have no problem with it. It is a very powerful ability, but only if you have the desire and discipline to make constant use of it. I wouldn't use it, but if I did, I could make it very annoying for the DM. I gave it a 7.

This is "balanced" by how the DM can make it very annoying for you.

Sunder is one of those things that makes more sense for NPCs than for PCs. I agree with what Ridley's Cohort said earlier -- sundering has issues, and this feat just complicates things even more.

 

[Phowett]

vote: good, if the DM put reasonable restrictions on it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The problem with sunder is it is only likely to succeed against inferior opponents because of the opposed attack roll. If you are fighting an inferior opponent in melee why aren't you killing him instead of destroying potential treasure? Why not just use disarm or grapple instead?

If it works, sunder is a permanent solution. Disarm either forces the foe to switch weapons or grant the people threatening him an AoO. If that foe is a balor with his vorpal greatsword (see the Heretic of the Wyre story hour for a particularly well timed Sunder), he'll probably just eat the AoO and you're back where you started. So you sunder it instead.

Grapple is not really a good solution against an equivalent (or higher level) melee type (the kind of foes sunder is good against). Unless you're allowing OA feats, you provoke an AoO (which will probably hit you, negating the grapple). And once you've entered the grapple, you haven't really gained much of an advantage. They're probably as good at it as you are unless you've focussed your character on grappling. Grappling is best against spellcasters who can't cast spells in a grapple.

As for destroying potential treasure, this is certainly worth it if it allows you to win where you'd otherwise lose or to win without deaths that would otherwise occur. After all, the cost of repairing the items enchantment (IIRC, this is something like half the cost of enchanting it to begin with) is probably less than the 6500 gp cost of a True Ressurection. It's also worth it if you can't keep the weapon or wouldn't want it (for example, a Githyanki silver sword or a blackguard's unholy sword).

This is really only a compelling tactic for NPCs with good DR. Even then it is easily countered by GMW (or Magic Weapon). Your primary casters can easily defeat the DR of any creature they are likely to meet with GMW.

I am uncomfortable with sundering weapons because it only encourages PCs to rely on GMW. I doubt that is a good thing. It is also cheesy because it very easy for the DM to abuse it against the PCs, accidentally or on purpose. For those of you who like this feat, how many earth elementals have you ever seen futilely attempt to break a +3 weapon? The sundering tactic can be used against these creatures in the long haul unless the DM metagames on their behalf.

A DM who uses sunder in a fairminded way is only increasing the value of GMW in the long run.

Actually, the possibility of sundering encourages me as a player to buy mithril or adamantite weapons. Since magic weapons in books are typically made of such strange metals, I don't think that's a bad thing.

As for GMW, precasting it on the party's weapons is not abuse of the spell--it's what it's there for. The only other solution is not to use it at all--quite a reasonable option for PC wizards who could have Fireballs instead and for PC clerics who could have Divine Power, Holy Smite, or empowered bull's strengths instead. I don't have any problem with putting in situations where it's an advantageous spell to have. It's not as if there aren't enough situations where one more fireball or one more Holy Smite wouldn't have been useful.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

You could always give a weapon that is in someones possesion a FORT save vs. massive damage, and only then be destroyed. If it succeeds, it is only damaged, say -2 to hit & dmg., until it is repaired. A 10 check for normal or MW items, a 20 if magical, but no other special requirements since it was not permanently damaged. Just don't count the HP done as "damage".

For those who think a Sunder will miss to often, there are many ways to get bonuses to hit that will work. True Strike, obviously, your own magic weapon, the Strenght domain would be great at this point for a bouble whammy. Not to mention that the weapon may be easier to hit than the foe. It's not Mage Armored, nor would it have cover bonuses, since it has to be out in the open to hit you.