please rate my version of ranger class

[argo]

Trailblazing:
I
Animal Companions:
Ranger's use half there class level for caster level.
So yes, it is double.

You know what? You're right, don't know where I got that idea into my head. Alright, there seems to be a unanimous call for keeping animal companions as they are so I'm putting them back to normal. Max HD of compnions = ranger level, but "demands of adventuring" hold it to 1/2 ranger level. The only change now is that they can get companions at 1st level instead of waiting until 4th. Do you think that should go too?

 

[Khorod]

Druid's gaining double the ranger, while getting a better ability bonus, is fine on all counts.

Are you dropping or modding Animal Friendship though?


I've been thinking, and I think Balance should definitely be added to Favored Terrain, but not to the skill list (it isn't there now). It makes sense that they don't fall down in their home territory, but rangers shouldn't be able to be terribly sure-footed under all conditions...


Also, as another ability I gleaned from some other ranger thread- partial concealment while in a home terrain. There was something about kicking up sand and slithering through the tall grass...

Really though, I suppose the Dodge bonus already covers Concealment.


I also saw something about 'Gear Optimization'. I don't think there's all that much to optimize. You pack tight and distribute the weight correctly, since you are a professional wanderer. I would expect the encumbrance system to take that into account already. Maybe in a higher tech setting...

Well, since I couldn't remember the source just thought I'd preemptively argue against it here.

Lot of good stuff on Steveroo's thread. I think this class is a good answer to a lot of the problems raised there, assuming you except Favored Terrain as a viable, solid ability.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I'm still not too keen on Favored Terrain for a ranger. I took a while to think about it and here's why:

1) Favored terrains do not work indoors. Every other class is still at full strength while indoors (including the druid, who can memorize other spells than call lightning and entangle.). A ranger with favored terrains is not. This is especially noticable whenever the campaign drifts to a dungeon.

2) A ranger who logically specializes in a certain terrain is penalized when the party travels to a new terrain type. (Which is a common occurance.) Which leads to...

3) A PC ranger with specialized favored terrains is going to constantly force the rest of the party to stay within those boundaries, to the detriment of the campaign.

4) A ranger who doesn't specialize (and takes one of each terrain type) is nothing more than a fighter with one terrain (because only one is active at a time), five feats and track.

5) Favored terrains only work on the material plane (with areas that you would find on Earth.) It wouldn't really work on the Abyss or the elemental plane of Fire, for example. (If the DM allows an entire plane to work as a Favored Terrain, then there is the problem of too many planes to choose from, i.e. a ranger who takes Acheron wouldn't apply that bonus on the Abyss. Also, why couldn't the ranger take Favored Terrain: Material Plane?)

6) Favored terrains do not make sense. Just because a ranger knows how to survive in one forest, does not mean that he should be as equally adept at surviving in a forest on a different continent (or plane) that has different flora and fauna.
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Honestly, I don't really like any Favored things, be it Enemies, Lands, Terrains, Beasts or what have you. It kind of goes against the whole idea of a ranger, IMHO. A ranger is supposed to be versatile. Versatility does not mean that the player can choose any sort of Favored Thing. It has to do with the ranger's versatility, not the player's. After a ranger chooses a Thing, he is no longer versatile. Having lots of Favored things to choose from means that the player has lots of options, but the ranger does not.

Regardless of which Favored Thing a ranger chooses, he is still specialized, and that specialization is what ruins the versatility of the PHB ranger. Favored Thing falls into the same trap, regardless of what type of Favored Thing you are talking about.

Example: Fred wants to play a ranger named Cheesehead. Fred has lots of different Favored Terrains to choose from. He asks the DM where the party is located. The DM tells Fred, "A Forest." Fred chooses forest as Cheesehead's first favored terrain.

But the forest in question is next to a river, a mountain range (with some natural caverns), a couple towns, some plains and a swamp (the delta near the ocean)

Cheesehead is specialized in dealing with forests. He will suck rocks when in the caves, mountains, towns, plains, swamp, ocean, dungeons, towers, castles and whatever else is not a forest. (All the way until L4 when he will probably choose one of the above terrains.)

If the story leads the party out of the forest (because the rest of the PCs are not going to stay in a forest forever), the DM can railroad the story back into the forest to appease the ranger, or the ranger can attempt to alter the story by staying in the forest.

If either of the above fails, then the ranger is outside of the forest, and for a while afterwards, the ranger will not be playing at full strength. (until back inside the forest.)
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Anyway, YMMV and IMHO and my 2 cents and all of that.

 

[Stalker0]

Anyone ever get this Holy Grail feeling when talking about alt.rangers

I think ConcreteBuddha makes some good points, but I'll have to disagree with some of them

Favored Terrains do cause specialization, but that's because in some ways you have to. The ony Fightertype that has the versatility to fight the same in practically all situations is the fighter, maybe the barbarian as well (although barbs rage can be taken out) The paladin is good when fighting evil creatures. When he's not, he is not fighting at full strength. Making a ranger truly versatile makes him a fighter, and that's not what we want to do. But if you don't give the ranger abilities based on the wilderness, well then he really isn't a ranger.

For this ranger, I wouldn't call two good saves, d10 hps, 6 skill points, an animal companion, and a fighter's BAB underpowered without the favored terrain. In fact, I would say its overpowered. The PHB ranger is weak, but we have to remember that there's a fine line between weak and overpowered.

For instance, while taking out the spells does take down some of the rangers power, remember it also takes out Wis as a key stat for the ranger. Where once good Str, Dex, Con, AND Wis were needed now only Str, Dex, and Con are needed.

One thing I definately agree with Buddha about is that while you want the Ranger to be a wilderness warrior, making sure he's still good underground is important. Standard Dnd takes place in dungeons, and the ranger has to compete there. Favored Terrain of Caverns might do the trick, and like I said the ranger above has plenty to keep him going.

 

[Khorod]

Well, this ranger is actually d8 hd, last I checked.
I suppose standard D&D is in dungeons- though neither Jason nor I favor the inexplicable dungeon under every rock. That would be a good reason to multiclass the ranger.

Favored terrains enforce what the ranger is- a guy at home in the wilderness. Not just any wilderness, but the lands in which he has trained, studied, and adventured. While different flora & fauna might impede him, a Forest terrain is going to be a forest terrain, and so maybe a temporary circumstance penalty would be in order.

The very idea of the ranger is that their is a variety of prime terrains, and that the ranger spends time in them. Obviously, this class doesn't cut it as a planeswalking ranger- that should be a prestige class I suppose. Taking the Abyss as a special favored terrain is not meant to make the Abyss as a whole less important than the Prime Material- in most campaigns (i would think) the Abyss will not be visited as often as plains. The Abyss, the Nine Hells, and so on are probably visited as often as any given type of terrain, once you're of a level to go bopping to the planes to kill demons every now and again. If a campaign becomes centered on such planes, maybe the terrains should be broken up- perhaps by the various regions and layers Outer Planes are so often broken up into.

The idea of this ranger is that 1) He's good outdoors, and 2) He likes being outdoors. The Wizard has a comparable weakness, for wizards don't like being in melee combat. As a result you need to have dedicated warriors or magic around to prevent them from getting killed. So, outside of the wilderness, the ranger needs magic and people skilled in dungeons and politics.

The real question is, can this ranger contribute something worthwhile no matter what, and does he shine where he is supposed to?

I have to ask, if you take out all 'Favored Things' from the ranger, why not just play a Fighter/Rogue, pulling out the social skills in exchange for Wilderness Lore? What other class powers would be good here? In thinking about it, I find that most potential powers would be better suited to a nature-warrior prestige class...

 

[Stalker0]

I'm glad this talk about plane hopping has come up. I've seen a fare number of favored terrain rangers, and this issue has never been brought up before.

While I personally like the Favored Terrain idea- this is a serious limitation. All the other classes are fine plane hopping, and some like paladins are VERY good on certain planes.

There's only a couple of options I can see.

1) Make the favored enemy/terrain a very powerful ability but limited ability. Basically, you would only get a few terrains and enemies, but while fighting those you are a force to be reackoned with, with powerful abilities and cool skills.

2) Make those abilities relatively weak, and focus on other aspect of the ranger that wouldn't be as situational. Therefore, when they get taken away, it doesn't cripple the ranger.

Hopefully between those two extremes there is a good ranger somewhere.

 

[Khorod]

So, argo, what about adding Balance to Favored Terrain?

My second post up there keeps changing. Elaborating and adding to my PrC ideas.

 

[Khorod]

Well, this ranger does make allowance for treating a particular plane as a Favored Terrain. I think that's about as good as can be.

I don't think it makes sense for a Ranger to be solid as a planeswalker- at least not this one. This ranger is all about being part of the natural world. In much the same way, if I gave it too much thought I would probably seriously penalize all druidic magics done on Outer (particularly lower) planes. Those magics are (usually) based on forces of the natural world.

For a planes-ranger, what would be the spin? A guy who seeks to impose his home-grown notions of natural order on all planes? A character who seeks to protect his own plane from the 'aberrant order' of other planes? Either way, being a master of the 'planar wilderness' to that extent gets dicey, particularly for a class with no magic. Taking this class in a hard-core planes campaign would really only make sense if you were playing an outsider...

Eventually I'll doodle up some notes for some sort of prestige class. I figure it should be a 10 level, have its own spellcasting progression, and have Favored Enemy instead of Favored Terrain. (but requires Favored Terrain in the homes of Favored Enemies?).

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I think ConcreteBuddha makes some good points, but I'll have to disagree with some of them

No problem. I'm okay with that.

Favored Terrains do cause specialization, but that's because in some ways you have to. The ony Fightertype that has the versatility to fight the same in practically all situations is the fighter, maybe the barbarian as well (although barbs rage can be taken out) The paladin is good when fighting evil creatures. When he's not, he is not fighting at full strength.

The fighter and barbarian are versatile in alomost all situations (except the rare instances where their weapons are useless.)

The paladin's only ability that is keyed to fighting evil creatures is smite evil. The lack of this in a given situation does not neuter the class. Besides, if a couple battles a day are vs. neutral creatures, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will be fighting something evil pretty darn soon (being a paladin and all.)

Making a ranger truly versatile makes him a fighter, and that's not what we want to do. But if you don't give the ranger abilities based on the wilderness, well then he really isn't a ranger.

Oh, I have no problem giving a ranger special abilites based on the wilderness. I just don't have to limit those abilities to a specific paradigm. Every other class is not required to specialize to remain effective. (And if they can, it's not a game breaker, like in the cases of Weapon Specialization and School Specializations.)

For this ranger, I wouldn't call two good saves, d10 hps, 6 skill points, an animal companion, and a fighter's BAB underpowered without the favored terrain. In fact, I would say its overpowered. The PHB ranger is weak, but we have to remember that there's a fine line between weak and overpowered.

I'm not going to comment on the power level of this class, as I can't get past the Favored Terrains in the first place.

One thing I definately agree with Buddha about is that while you want the Ranger to be a wilderness warrior, making sure he's still good underground is important. Standard Dnd takes place in dungeons, and the ranger has to compete there. Favored Terrain of Caverns might do the trick, and like I said the ranger above has plenty to keep him going.

I think it's not really enough. IMX, in both my games and other's games, there are as many situations indoors as there are outdoors.
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Khorod---
Favored terrains enforce what the ranger is- a guy at home in the wilderness. Not just any wilderness, but the lands in which he has trained, studied, and adventured.

That is a perfect idea for an NPC class, but for an PC base class, it's kinda limiting.

Fighters, barbarians, paladins, and monks can fight anywhere. Rogues and bards can ply their skills anywhere. Sorcerers, wizards, clerics and druids can cast their spells anywhere.

To limit the ranger to specific terrains is to limit the storyline to revolve around the ranger (to the detriment of the other PCs).

I have to ask, if you take out all 'Favored Things' from the ranger, why not just play a Fighter/Rogue, pulling out the social skills in exchange for Wilderness Lore? What other class powers would be good here?

Please forgive me for tooting my own horn, but these are the powers I think fit:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28547

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If favored terrains cannot be gotten rid of, I'd go with this suggestion:

Stalker0----
2) Make those abilities relatively weak, and focus on other aspect of the ranger that wouldn't be as situational. Therefore, when they get taken away, it doesn't cripple the ranger.

 

[Khorod]

The problem with taking the focus off Favored Terrains is that there is so little else to go on. If I want my ranger to have uncanny dodge and be sneaky, I want him to multiclass. Same for raging.

One of the challenges with building a good ranger is that Wilderness Lore covers almost everything natury- without doing stuff to specialize that, there's not much left but borrowing aspects of other classes- or making a monster slayer.

Your version of the ranger takes a lot from the Barbarian and Druid. Since I am planning my next campaign without these classes immediately available, that would be a good thing- but I don't want to force people into an 'angry ranger' concept...

When I consider this class, I am thinking of that campaign- it will take place in forests, hills, mountains, cities, natural caverns, a couple dungeons. But I will be moving the player's around pretty fast. Hm. Maybe I wasn't thinking in terms of that.

Okay, take Favored Terrain, replace the dodge bonus with a Concealment bonus of some sort, which works when they are not in melee combat. Now, give them an escalating 'Survival Instinct' ability. This allows them to add there Wisdom bonus as an Insight bonus to Reflex saves and AC.

Now, wherever they go, they are hard to harm. In their own terrain, they are hard to find & hard to harm.

WARNING: Now on a track to being overpowered...