Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

Pentallion · Nov 6, 2022

I think they should have done their homework before discussing DL. To barely remember Laurana was cringe. To think the women were just nothing was cringe.
Laurana was the greatest of all the heroes, became leader of the knights, defeated the dragons at the High Clerist Tower and had an excellent character arc.
Goldmoon was the spiritual leader of the group and a leader of her tribe. Riverwind followed her. Portrayed as a very strong woman.

Chronicles and Legends were huge bestsellers because women loved the books portrayal of the female characters.

As for the males, two die, Tanis is an incredibly indecisive leader, one becomes a drunk and Raistlin turns to evil and is meant to symbolize a junkie with his addiction to magic.

So the males are all greatly flawed and the women are quite noble and heroic. Boy was your narrative way off!

Gully dwarves and kender got the way they were due to a chaos orb. It altered the dwarven race, making low intelligence gully dwarves and kleptomaniac kender.

The writers did this for the thematic purpose of having people who were treated as lesser be heroic. Or contrast the supposedly honorable and good people with how they treated the disadvantaged. For the purpose of teaching how even normally good people can be prejudiced.

Both my children understood the message. Not sure why people don't get it nowadays.

Both races were beloved by readers. That they were treated with contempt by the rest of Krynn was an example of prejudice and intolerance.

Some of he heroes themselves were guilty of it though not Raistlin, Goldmoon or Tass.

The message of DL was this: People of low intelligence exist. Kleptomaniacs exist. Indecisive leaders exist. Drunks and junkies. They can still have worth. They can still be heroes. None of us are perfect.
That is why they should remain as they were.
To change them is to actually BE prejudicial.

Bayushi_seikuro · Nov 6, 2022

I don't know about the comment about Laurana not being cringe - I remember her being VERY cringe until she took leadership roles. If my memory is right, until the stuff leading up to the High Clerist's Tower, she was written very much along the lines of 'Oh no! Tanis doesn't love me! Get me my fainting couch right away!' She does end up becoming more heroic later on but she's written clearly early on to be the equivalent of a teenage stereotypical girl

LuisCarlos17f · Nov 6, 2022

Dragonlance is the spirit of its age, and we have to accept.

I can't suggest about how to change the main plot because I am not a profesional writter, but I can add details about my own game. Laurana in the begining was too psychologically immature but with the war and the suffering she matured as person.

For example the origin of the gullys is the mixture of marriages between dwarves and gnomes, but the mental handicap was caused by an epidemic they could survive, although with some health damage. The gullys had to explore the Feywild to search some special medicinal herbs. With the right education gullys aren't so dumb. Their ignorance is not genetic, but because social circustances.

Some members of the order of the seekers discovered the psionic powers. Some knights of Solamnia (and other orders) are paladins or crusaders(martial adept class).

In the age of despair some healing magic was possible by bards, alchemists and druids.

Within the Shadowfell-Krynnspace there are dark-domains, and not always lord Soth is the dark lord.

There is a secret demiplane with spider-dragons.

There are secret cells of evil cult of the elder elemental eye(Tharizdum) whose leaders are (shapesifter)linnords. There are also secret agents of Vecna.

Pentallion · Nov 6, 2022

Bayushi_seikuro said:
I don't know about the comment about Laurana not being cringe - I remember her being VERY cringe until she took leadership roles. If my memory is right, until the stuff leading up to the High Clerist's Tower, she was written very much along the lines of 'Oh no! Tanis doesn't love me! Get me my fainting couch right away!' She does end up becoming more heroic later on but she's written clearly early on to be the equivalent of a teenage stereotypical girl

That's called character arc. She started out as a rebellious runaway. She was quite literally the spoiled princess. She grew up quickly and became a leader. Growth. You know, that stuff the protagonist does to make themselves the hero.

She contrasts well with the already mature, strong leader Goldmoon. If anything, Goldmoon is too perfect, the only character with no real flaw. They gave her a fear of heights just so she wouldn't be too perfect. Goldmoon never has a big character arc. She's a supporting character, not a protagonist like Laurana.

And then there's Tika, who, as they say, was a barmaid, as if that's a put down. Really didn't like how they treated that as a put down. Tika has no fighting skills. She's been an orphan her whole life. She was a thief to survive when young. She never feels like she belongs with the likes of Raistlin, Tanis and Laurana. She even openly says so. Yet, she's there, nonetheless and is a hero. Again, never a big character arc. Supporting character. Imperfect? Yes, that's the point. That's the theme.

wellis · Nov 7, 2022

So is this podcast normally this bad at doing research, or as classist as it appears here about the backgrounds of adventurers?

Like seriously, why put down Tika because she was a barmaid?

whimsychris123 · Nov 7, 2022

Pentallion said:
I think they should have done their homework before discussing DL. To barely remember Laurana was cringe. To think the women were just nothing was cringe.
Laurana was the greatest of all the heroes, became leader of the knights, defeated the dragons at the High Clerist Tower and had an excellent character arc.
Goldmoon was the spiritual leader of the group and a leader of her tribe. Riverwind followed her. Portrayed as a very strong woman.

Chronicles and Legends were huge bestsellers because women loved the books portrayal of the female characters.

As for the males, two die, Tanis is an incredibly indecisive leader, one becomes a drunk and Raistlin turns to evil and is meant to symbolize a junkie with his addiction to magic.

So the males are all greatly flawed and the women are quite noble and heroic. Boy was your narrative way off!

Gully dwarves and kender got the way they were due to a chaos orb. It altered the dwarven race, making low intelligence gully dwarves and kleptomaniac kender.

The writers did this for the thematic purpose of having people who were treated as lesser be heroic. Or contrast the supposedly honorable and good people with how they treated the disadvantaged. For the purpose of teaching how even normally good people can be prejudiced.

Both my children understood the message. Not sure why people don't get it nowadays.

Both races were beloved by readers. That they were treated with contempt by the rest of Krynn was an example of prejudice and intolerance.

Some of he heroes themselves were guilty of it though not Raistlin, Goldmoon or Tass.

The message of DL was this: People of low intelligence exist. Kleptomaniacs exist. Indecisive leaders exist. Drunks and junkies. They can still have worth. They can still be heroes. None of us are perfect.
That is why they should remain as they were.
To change them is to actually BE prejudicial.

I agree with most of what you say, but I’m not sure you entirely get to heart of why some people might have issues.

The portrayal of women in the stories were fine. The art, however, tended to sexualize them with big bosoms and skimpy clothes. I think that’s what most people are basing their ideas from when it comes to female portrayal.

The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.

LuisCarlos17f · Nov 7, 2022

Kenders aren't kleptomaniac, they don't enjoy with the morbid by forbidden actions, bu they are compulse collectors, and not all share the same personality and vices.

Gullys can continue in Krynn, even as comedic elements but with some retouchs.

Female characters were painted as beatifule women, but that happened in everywhere, not only Dragonlance, but also in the covers of all books and comic magazines of speculative fiction. And we know Dragonlance heroines aren't only a pretty face. They were brave but not annoying Mary Sue.

Of course some changes are necessary to can update the "crunch", for example to allow space for the sorcerers and warlocks, classes there weren't in AD&D. Some DMs could add Sithicus as a dark domain within the Shadowfell, with or without lord Soth.

Pentallion · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
I agree with most of what you say, but I’m not sure you entirely get to heart of why some people might have issues.

The portrayal of women in the stories were fine. The art, however, tended to sexualize them with big bosoms and skimpy clothes. I think that’s what most people are basing their ideas from when it comes to female portrayal.

The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.

You "think"? You don't know? Here, let's take a look. Laurana. Not buxom, not scantily clad.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c6/8c/e6/c68ce6c3f3d11716b585f7cdae9eb01d.jpg

Goldmoon, tastefully drawn.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/99/28/8e9928682925946e88e76eed4a05dc1d.jpg

Just duckduckgo Dragonlance hit images and be disabused of that notion.

Who are the "they" you speak of whose solution was it being cultural, not race?
It wasn't racial. It was a curse laid on dwarves by the graygem. It was magic.
Did WOTC say somewhere they were changing this? Very odd but ultimately irrelevant.

Ixal · Nov 7, 2022

Sounds like some people have already made up their mind that DL must be sexist and "out of date" because its old and everything old is problematic.

Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

Darryl Mott

Pentallion

Explorer

Bayushi_seikuro

Hero

LuisCarlos17f

Legend

Pentallion

Explorer

wellis

Explorer

whimsychris123

Adventurer

LuisCarlos17f

Legend

Pentallion

Explorer

Ixal

Hero

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