Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

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This week, Morrus, Peter, and Jessica talk about what they’d change in the Dragonlance setting. In the news, more Dragonlance previews, new Dungeons & Dragons toys announced, the original Forgotten Realms map found, CY_BORG hardcover release, and more! Plus a brand new sketch about a party member’s disappointing performance.

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This week, Morrus, Peter, and Jessica talk about what they’d change in the Dragonlance setting. In the news, more Dragonlance previews, new Dungeons & Dragons toys announced, the original Forgotten Realms map found, CY_BORG hardcover release, and more! Plus a brand new sketch about a party member’s disappointing performance.

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News

Peter will guest on a charity live stream on Sunday, November 6
Introducing Dragonlance’s Iconic – And Upgradedc! – Death Knight, Lord Soth! Dragonlance - Introducing Dragonlance's Iconic - And Upgraded! - Death Knight, Lord Soth!

Dragonlance: Solamnic Knights & Mages of High Sorcery Preview Dragonlance - Dragonlance: Solamnic Knights & Mages of High Sorcery Preview

Coverage of the posted-then-removed Wizards of the Coast video on the Flying Citadel Dragonlance - WotC Talks About Dragonlance's Flying Citadel

Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs on Krynn Dragonlance - Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

First Map of the Forgotten Realms D&D General - The First Map of the Forgotten Realms

News Digest for the Week of November 4 (Dicelings dice transformers, ESPN SportsCenter segment on D&D, Noble Knight Games refuses to voluntarily recognize employee union, Penguin Random House and Simon & Schuster Merger Blocked, CY_BORG hardcover announced) News Digest for the Week of November 4

Heroes Old and New from Roll Them Bones Gaming for Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Heroes Old and New - Roll them Bones Gaming | DriveThruRPG.com

Cowboy Bebop The Roleplaying Game https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manaprojectstudio/cowboy-bebop-the-roleplaying-game

Kids on Bikes 2nd Edition https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/huntersbooks/kids-on-bikes-second-edition

Pinebox Middle School & The Horror Companion Double Feature https://www.kickstarter.com/project...chool-and-the-horror-companion-double-feature

The Copy-editor’s Guide to Writing D&D by Danny Kodicek The Copy-editor's Guide to Writing D&D - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

Koriko: A Magical Year https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jhrrsn/koriko-a-magical-year

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What We’d Update About Dragonlance

Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen (Dungeons & Dragons Adventure Book): Wizards RPG Team: 9780786968282: Amazon.com: Books

Dragons of Autumn Twilight: Dragonlance Chronicles Book 1 Amazon.com: Dragons of Autumn Twilight: Dragonlance: Chronicles, Book 1 (Audible Audio Edition): Margaret Weis, Paul Boehmer, Tracy Hickman, Audible Studios: Audible Books & Originals

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Please support us on Patreon at http://patreon.com/morrus

Don’t forget to join the Morrus’ Unofficial Tabletop RPG Talk Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/1033145023517295/ and join us on Discord at https://discord.gg/VAuxX8M

Ask your Awfully Cheerful Question on Twitter using the hashtag #AwfullyCheerfulQuestion, email morruspodcast@gmail.com, or contact us on TikTok at TikTok

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Hosts: Russ “Morrus” Morrissey, Peter Coffey, and Jessica Hancock

Editing and post-production: Darryl Mott

Theme Song: Steve Arnott

Malach the Maleficent played by Darren Morrissey

Check out all the media content from EN World at http://enliverpg.com
 

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Darryl Mott

Darryl Mott

Pentallion

Explorer
I think they should have done their homework before discussing DL. To barely remember Laurana was cringe. To think the women were just nothing was cringe.
Laurana was the greatest of all the heroes, became leader of the knights, defeated the dragons at the High Clerist Tower and had an excellent character arc.
Goldmoon was the spiritual leader of the group and a leader of her tribe. Riverwind followed her. Portrayed as a very strong woman.

Chronicles and Legends were huge bestsellers because women loved the books portrayal of the female characters.

As for the males, two die, Tanis is an incredibly indecisive leader, one becomes a drunk and Raistlin turns to evil and is meant to symbolize a junkie with his addiction to magic.

So the males are all greatly flawed and the women are quite noble and heroic. Boy was your narrative way off!

Gully dwarves and kender got the way they were due to a chaos orb. It altered the dwarven race, making low intelligence gully dwarves and kleptomaniac kender.

The writers did this for the thematic purpose of having people who were treated as lesser be heroic. Or contrast the supposedly honorable and good people with how they treated the disadvantaged. For the purpose of teaching how even normally good people can be prejudiced.

Both my children understood the message. Not sure why people don't get it nowadays.

Both races were beloved by readers. That they were treated with contempt by the rest of Krynn was an example of prejudice and intolerance.

Some of he heroes themselves were guilty of it though not Raistlin, Goldmoon or Tass.

The message of DL was this: People of low intelligence exist. Kleptomaniacs exist. Indecisive leaders exist. Drunks and junkies. They can still have worth. They can still be heroes. None of us are perfect.
That is why they should remain as they were.
To change them is to actually BE prejudicial.
 
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Bayushi_seikuro

Adventurer
I don't know about the comment about Laurana not being cringe - I remember her being VERY cringe until she took leadership roles. If my memory is right, until the stuff leading up to the High Clerist's Tower, she was written very much along the lines of 'Oh no! Tanis doesn't love me! Get me my fainting couch right away!' She does end up becoming more heroic later on but she's written clearly early on to be the equivalent of a teenage stereotypical girl
 

Dragonlance is the spirit of its age, and we have to accept.

I can't suggest about how to change the main plot because I am not a profesional writter, but I can add details about my own game. Laurana in the begining was too psychologically immature but with the war and the suffering she matured as person.

For example the origin of the gullys is the mixture of marriages between dwarves and gnomes, but the mental handicap was caused by an epidemic they could survive, although with some health damage. The gullys had to explore the Feywild to search some special medicinal herbs. With the right education gullys aren't so dumb. Their ignorance is not genetic, but because social circustances.

Some members of the order of the seekers discovered the psionic powers. Some knights of Solamnia (and other orders) are paladins or crusaders(martial adept class).

In the age of despair some healing magic was possible by bards, alchemists and druids.

Within the Shadowfell-Krynnspace there are dark-domains, and not always lord Soth is the dark lord.

There is a secret demiplane with spider-dragons.

There are secret cells of evil cult of the elder elemental eye(Tharizdum) whose leaders are (shapesifter)linnords. There are also secret agents of Vecna.
 

Pentallion

Explorer
I don't know about the comment about Laurana not being cringe - I remember her being VERY cringe until she took leadership roles. If my memory is right, until the stuff leading up to the High Clerist's Tower, she was written very much along the lines of 'Oh no! Tanis doesn't love me! Get me my fainting couch right away!' She does end up becoming more heroic later on but she's written clearly early on to be the equivalent of a teenage stereotypical girl
That's called character arc. She started out as a rebellious runaway. She was quite literally the spoiled princess. She grew up quickly and became a leader. Growth. You know, that stuff the protagonist does to make themselves the hero.

She contrasts well with the already mature, strong leader Goldmoon. If anything, Goldmoon is too perfect, the only character with no real flaw. They gave her a fear of heights just so she wouldn't be too perfect. Goldmoon never has a big character arc. She's a supporting character, not a protagonist like Laurana.

And then there's Tika, who, as they say, was a barmaid, as if that's a put down. Really didn't like how they treated that as a put down. Tika has no fighting skills. She's been an orphan her whole life. She was a thief to survive when young. She never feels like she belongs with the likes of Raistlin, Tanis and Laurana. She even openly says so. Yet, she's there, nonetheless and is a hero. Again, never a big character arc. Supporting character. Imperfect? Yes, that's the point. That's the theme.
 
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whimsychris123

Adventurer
I think they should have done their homework before discussing DL. To barely remember Laurana was cringe. To think the women were just nothing was cringe.
Laurana was the greatest of all the heroes, became leader of the knights, defeated the dragons at the High Clerist Tower and had an excellent character arc.
Goldmoon was the spiritual leader of the group and a leader of her tribe. Riverwind followed her. Portrayed as a very strong woman.

Chronicles and Legends were huge bestsellers because women loved the books portrayal of the female characters.

As for the males, two die, Tanis is an incredibly indecisive leader, one becomes a drunk and Raistlin turns to evil and is meant to symbolize a junkie with his addiction to magic.

So the males are all greatly flawed and the women are quite noble and heroic. Boy was your narrative way off!

Gully dwarves and kender got the way they were due to a chaos orb. It altered the dwarven race, making low intelligence gully dwarves and kleptomaniac kender.

The writers did this for the thematic purpose of having people who were treated as lesser be heroic. Or contrast the supposedly honorable and good people with how they treated the disadvantaged. For the purpose of teaching how even normally good people can be prejudiced.

Both my children understood the message. Not sure why people don't get it nowadays.

Both races were beloved by readers. That they were treated with contempt by the rest of Krynn was an example of prejudice and intolerance.

Some of he heroes themselves were guilty of it though not Raistlin, Goldmoon or Tass.

The message of DL was this: People of low intelligence exist. Kleptomaniacs exist. Indecisive leaders exist. Drunks and junkies. They can still have worth. They can still be heroes. None of us are perfect.
That is why they should remain as they were.
To change them is to actually BE prejudicial.
I agree with most of what you say, but I’m not sure you entirely get to heart of why some people might have issues.

The portrayal of women in the stories were fine. The art, however, tended to sexualize them with big bosoms and skimpy clothes. I think that’s what most people are basing their ideas from when it comes to female portrayal.

The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.
 

Kenders aren't kleptomaniac, they don't enjoy with the morbid by forbidden actions, bu they are compulse collectors, and not all share the same personality and vices.

Gullys can continue in Krynn, even as comedic elements but with some retouchs.

Female characters were painted as beatifule women, but that happened in everywhere, not only Dragonlance, but also in the covers of all books and comic magazines of speculative fiction. And we know Dragonlance heroines aren't only a pretty face. They were brave but not annoying Mary Sue.

Of course some changes are necessary to can update the "crunch", for example to allow space for the sorcerers and warlocks, classes there weren't in AD&D. Some DMs could add Sithicus as a dark domain within the Shadowfell, with or without lord Soth.
 

Pentallion

Explorer
I agree with most of what you say, but I’m not sure you entirely get to heart of why some people might have issues.

The portrayal of women in the stories were fine. The art, however, tended to sexualize them with big bosoms and skimpy clothes. I think that’s what most people are basing their ideas from when it comes to female portrayal.

The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.
You "think"? You don't know? Here, let's take a look. Laurana. Not buxom, not scantily clad.


Goldmoon, tastefully drawn.


Just duckduckgo Dragonlance hit images and be disabused of that notion.

Who are the "they" you speak of whose solution was it being cultural, not race?
It wasn't racial. It was a curse laid on dwarves by the graygem. It was magic.
Did WOTC say somewhere they were changing this? Very odd but ultimately irrelevant.
 
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The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.
Strange that in a world full of magic, the story of magic corrupting a species is disallowed.
How sad and poor for storytelling.

I cannot wait for the upgrade to VtM, when the decision is made that an entire bloodline like the Nosferatu cannot be cursed to be hideous. 🤦‍♂️
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It's valid to have a differing viewpoint on issues of ableism, but those of you who have decided that the correct approach is to openly mock or deride those who suggest that such issues be given some thought had better knock it off, before they're disinvited. If your response to this topic is vitriol or sarcasm, I highly recommend not posting.
 

The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.
Personally, the issue I have with gully dwarves is some of the game books have stated they're the result of gnome and dwarf inter-breeding and such inter-breeding was banned after seeing the result. There's just no way to justify that as being an ok things to put in a game book, they could have stuck with them just being another offshoot of the Graygem alterations and they ended up poor and living in the leftover spaces just due to bad luck or whatever. Why couldn't they just be something closer to kobolds, which have their own unique traits and still tend to live in less desirable places?
 

whimsychris123

Adventurer
You "think"? You don't know? Here, let's take a look. Laurana. Not buxom, not scantily clad.


Goldmoon, tastefully drawn.


Just duckduckgo Dragonlance hit images and be disabused of that notion.

Who are the "they" you speak of whose solution was it being cultural, not race?
It wasn't racial. It was a curse laid on dwarves by the graygem. It was magic.
Did WOTC say somewhere they were changing this? Very odd but ultimately irrelevant.
Yes, I "think," I don't know. Just like you don't know the inner thoughts of people or their motivations. Why the tone?

Attached is another example, from the cover of the first (and most popular ) module, of the only female member of the beginning group. Everyone else is wearing pants, and she must be wearing a push-up bra. This "spiritual leader" is obviously sexualized in this picture. I agree with you that the actual portrayals of the characters in the stories themselves are fine, but the art was often sexualizing the women.

She also wears Native American garb but clearly doesn't look Native American. This may be another reason why some people take issue.

The "they" I speak of are the commentators in the podcast, the current topic of conversation. And like I said, it doesn't matter if the race is the way it is because of magic. You still have races of people with intellectual disabilities or thieving behavior, which smacks of real-world racist viewpoints. It doesn't matter if they carry the mark of Cain or whatever equivalent curse (in this case, chaos orbs) has been placed on them. That's why I like the commentator's solution that these groups are the way they are not because of race, but because of culture. But I agree with you that the actual portrayal of these characters is less ableist than the commentators suggest.
 

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  • Dragons-of-Despair-1.jpg
    Dragons-of-Despair-1.jpg
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You "think"? You don't know? Here, let's take a look. Laurana. Not buxom, not scantily clad.


Goldmoon, tastefully drawn.


Just duckduckgo Dragonlance hit images and be disabused of that notion.

Who are the "they" you speak of whose solution was it being cultural, not race?
It wasn't racial. It was a curse laid on dwarves by the graygem. It was magic.
Did WOTC say somewhere they were changing this? Very odd but ultimately irrelevant.
You're conveniently leaving out the first painting of Goldmoon on the cover of DL1 Dragons of Despair. Bare legs aren't exactly how I'd imagine a priestess going into battle against a dragon. Also the Goldmoon painting you refer to as tastefully drawn still has wearing a pretty low cut top. Want to know what probably depicts a woman better? Goldmoon as depicted on the cover of New Tales:
9781560766070-us.jpg

Or how she's shown in this painting:
riverwindandgoldmoon_1100-800x445.jpg

Or the revised cover of Dragons of Autumn Twilight:
b5824600-c0ee-47aa-b7f4-e49e4e952ef9.ecd66cd0946655dc381e00d41d698e8a.jpeg


As for Laurana, I'm guessing you're aware of this one as well:
Dragons-of-Triumph.jpg


There were plenty of early DL paintings that many people feel objectify women, which as you've noted was a series that featured strong women in key roles. I can't think of a painting that shows Kitiara sexualized in anyway for example so art depicting them like that wasn't needed at all.
 

She also wears Native American garb but clearly doesn't look Native American. This may be another reason why some people take issue.
That's a huge issue for some people too and it's a pretty easy one to change without impacting the character much. Maybe the name Goldmoon doesn't make sense if she's dark haired like the rest of her people are described, but you can still leave pretty much everything else about her story intact.
 




whimsychris123

Adventurer
That's a huge issue for some people too and it's a pretty easy one to change without impacting the character much. Maybe the name Goldmoon doesn't make sense if she's dark haired like the rest of her people are described, but you can still leave pretty much everything else about her story intact.
There’s a lot of reasons that a woman might be called Goldmoon besides her hair color. I know that’s the reason stated in the book, but it need not be so. I think you could leave the essential parts of the characters intact while giving them more of an authentic indigenous portrayal.
 

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