Point Blank Shot and Far Shot

[Magnus]

not sure if this belongs here or in House Rules but:

has anyone considered if the Far Shot feat should affect the 30ft limit on the bonuses granted by Point Blank Shot? (and sneak attack and weapon specialization while we're at it) seems fair to me, but i wonder what the possible effects on game balance it might have. any ideas?

 

[Crothian]

I've done this very thing and I think it worked out well. Theres a feat in Traps and treachery that extends sneak attack to 45ft and many people said that was one of the things that shouldn't be altered in the d20 system. Even Monte said it was a bad idea, but I never read a good reason as to why.

 

[the Jester]

I think the 30' limit is in place for a lot of good reasons. I don't mind the idea of a feat that extends it but I prefer the idea of a prestige class ability that extends it instead; and I think it would make far shot way too good to bundle it together like that.

 

[Crothian]

I think the 30' limit is in place for a lot of good reasons. I don't mind the idea of a feat that extends it but I prefer the idea of a prestige class ability that extends it instead; and I think it would make far shot way too good to bundle it together like that.

I don';t doubt there are reasons, I'd just like to know what they are. AS I said, I used in my campaigns and we never had a problem with it.

 

[Magnus]

I think the 30' limit is in place for a lot of good reasons. I don't mind the idea of a feat that extends it but I prefer the idea of a prestige class ability that extends it instead; and I think it would make far shot way too good to bundle it together like that.

ok Jester, i get that you think it's a bad idea. but why? i'm sure there are lots of people who think that it's a bad i dea. i'd like to hear why it should or shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Magnus,

I can see your rule change making ranged combat more popular than melee combat on the whole. In 3e, a lot of combat rules revolve around the 30' barrier. The main reason for this (as far as I can tell,) is because the base speed for a medium-sized creature is also 30'. So to get the bonus, (by standard rules) an archer rogue has to open himself up to melee attack by being within attack distance of the foe he's firing upon.

If the range of Point-Blank Shot and sneak attack is lengthened by Far Shot, then the archer-rogue need merely fire and move back each round. The fighter will never be able to close with him.

Granted, there are magics that alter this basic premise, but I think it's a likely reason why the 30' limit was created on those abilities (point-blank, sneak attack,) in the first place, and a good reason to keep it as is.

 

[Magnus]

ok, that seems like a reasonable idea, on the surface. however, a character with a base move of 30' can charge up to 60' and still get his one attack that moving 30' and then attacking would yield. so unless your argument is that a character with a base of 20 won't be able to, doesn't really seem all that valid to me. but the lower movement is part of the price you pay for getting a +1 to hit just about everyone else all the time that stacks with everthing else or that oh so important hitpoint bonus and resistance to all magic. yes, no?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Keep in mind that I'm just throwing out ideas for you to consider. Though I don't think I'd instigate the idea you've suggested myself, I'm not opposed to it, nor do I think the game would be destroyed if you used it (as Crothian has already pointed out.)

As a friendly conversation, though, I hadn't thought of charging. That has its own wrinkles (+2 to hit / -2 to AC) which may or may not change things. You're certainly right, it does allow the fighter to close with the archer. Of course, it means the fighter must give up +2AC every round to do so, while the archer gives up nothing...

Hmm...I don't think that charging would sway me to use this house rule. Sneak Attack, movement, vision (darkvision extends out in multiples of 30 feet, starting with 30. This means that for those creatures with darkvision 30, you'd have to be within range of their darkvision to use your attack, with your house rule, you wouldn't...) too many things use the 30' barrier for me to willingly set it aside.

But as Crothian said, it probably won't do too much. I may just be over-conservative in this situation. And as your charging option points out, my greatest concern (the flow of melee) seems to be weaker than I'd thought.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, the system was designed with this 30ft barrier in place as mentioned above. A feat that allowed you to increase this to 45ft wouldn't be too bad. Part of me wants to say that I wouldn't use it, but I've never tried it and the one person that did hasn't run into any problems, so I would put that feat in my list of "maybes"

As for charging, that's what the designers wanted By making the limit 30ft they were basically saying - Ok, the archer can make a sneak attack, but then when the target gets to go, he can respond this round. By changing it to 45ft, now the archer would be 75ft away after a shot, which would mean the victim (barring movement enhancement) would not be able to reach the archer that round. Thus, the archer would get an extra round of bonuses that he wouldn't have gotten with it at 30ft. Also, since you must charge in a straight line, increasing the range to 45ft allows more flexibilty on the archers part to put intervening terrain between himself and the target to nullify the charge for the target.

Giving the archer at least one more round of bonuses on his ranged attack (by increasing from 30ft to 45ft) would make ranged attacks slightly more powerful than before. At the cost of a feat, I'm ok with that (unlike an idea that was bounced around a little while ago to increase the range by 5ft per rank of spot the archer had - that was just nasty).

IceBear

 

[el Voz]

Stop trying to justify the archers target can travel x feet in a round. It is not what he can under certain conditions can do. It is about the preception of what the target can do.

I have an archer, I need to trade off the great possibility of going into melee after the shot or not, if I want to use point blank.

30 feet distance increases the chance that my target can do melee with me. 45 feet decreases the chance. Entire strategys are developed with this 30 feet distance.

Also has a DM, that means that the bad guys can hit point blank at 45 feet.