Point Blank Shot and Far Shot

[IceBear]

That's what I said

It was just being pointed out that many things in the rules seemed to be based on 30ft. Anything that modifies one of these could impact the others.

IceBear

 

[Magnus]

... By changing it to 45ft, now the archer would be 75ft away after a shot, ...

this assumes that 1, the archer starts 45' away and doesn't need to close to 45' first; and 2, that the character has a base speed of 30', while certain targets can have a lower base speed, so can an archer. (it also seems to assume that the combatants are facing off one-to-one.) now assuming that both of your requirements are met, now your archer is 75' away. who says that the target will close? what's to stop him from using his own missile weapons against you? now that you're both on even footing.

30 feet distance increases the chance that my target can do melee with me. 45 feet decreases the chance. Entire strategys are developed with this 30 feet distance. ... Also has a DM, that means that the bad guys can hit point blank at 45 feet.

the chance, yes. if you're an archer on your own, certainly. i play an archer as well. and in situations where enemies close with me, i usually end up using the 5' step back and shooting (usually at the other party members' targets). certainly your archer does this too? yes entire strategies are developed around the 30' distance. so? develop new ones to go with the 45' possibility. plain and simple.

it is clearly obvious that in certain specific situations this can be abused. but that happens to the core rules as well. isn't that, after all, what the numerous smackdown threads are about after all? keep in mind that any are that one focuses on too much means that there are a myriad of others that they're ignoring.

yes, i am well aware that feats work for NPCs as well. this isn't an exercise in munchkinism. i'm not trying to wrangle some extra use out of a feat. i'm merely trying to find some discussion on a topic that i've been considering for a lil while now.

Originally posted by Lord Pendragon
Keep in mind that I'm just throwing out ideas for you to consider. ... As a friendly conversation, though, I hadn't thought of charging. ... Of course, it means the fighter must give up +2AC every round to do so, while the archer gives up nothing...

Hmm...I don't think that charging would sway me to use this house rule. Sneak Attack, movement, vision (darkvision extends out in multiples of 30 feet, starting with 30. This means that for those creatures with darkvision 30, you'd have to be within range of their darkvision to use your attack, with your house rule, you wouldn't...) too many things use the 30' barrier for me to willingly set it aside.

Lord Pendragon, i do appreciate your comments, however: the fighter doesn't give up +2AC every round. he only gives it up the first round that he does that (assuming that he does in fact do that). after he's in melee range, the combatants would now be on even footing, and unless the archer can tumble away (with bow in hand) he'd provoke an AoO if he did more than a 5' step. keep in mind also, that sneak attack isn't gonna happen all that often with a ranged weapon. you don't threaten with one, so there'd be no flanking or AoOs. it's not like the archer would be getting sneak attack all the time. plus this requires TWO feats.

now, as for the idea about darkvision. AFAIK only two core races get darkvision and both dwarves and half-orcs get it up to 60'. now, i may be confusing things with 2e rules, but wouldn't a rogue need to be hidden to get his sneak attack anyway? and if he makes his hide roll, isn't he already hidden from darkvision as well?

as an aside:
i don't want this to turn into a discussion that focuses only on the issue of extending sneak attack range. you'll notice that in my first post, i mentioned sneak attack and weapon specialization (which seems to have been ignored thus far when i think that, ironically, it'd serve the counter arguments better) in parentheses, more as an afterthought than anything else.

 

[Crothian]

The biggest problem I had with it was sneak attacking archers in an ambush situation. Allowing sneak attack at a farther distance makes it a little harder for the PCs to spot them and a little harder to retaliate in a fast manner. Especially when the 45' is not on the same level as the PCs. I had the Archers on roof tops, 2 stories up. But the party was smart. They first sought cover and then pulled out some heavy artilery (fireballs, flame strikes).

It does give the Archers an additional advantage. I didn't find it coming onto play that often. None of the PCs had this ability, but the assassin group trying to kill them did.

Making it an additional feat with the seems to balance it out. The prerequites are ability to sneak attack, point blank shot, and far shot. So, it's the third feat in the chain and should have some oomph.

 

[Magnus]

Crothian, that sounds like intelligent use of abilities to me, on both the part of the NPCs and the players. i don't really think that you can count sneak attack in that feat "chain" tho. u get it for free with certain classes. it's not like you can just pick it up with the classes that don't get them. but i like the fact the way that it was used and succesessfully countered. if you're still using the variant rule, do let me know if it comes up again, and certainly if it creates any problems in your game. good luck!

 

[Crothian]

The feat chain I was referring to is Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Improved Ranged Sneak Attack. IRSA still needs the ability to do a sneak attack to get the feat.

I'm not currently runnina game right now. Enjoying the pleasuer of PCing. Jioning a new group Sunday, so I may be running again soon. Depends on what's going on with them.

 

[IceBear]

this assumes that 1, the archer starts 45' away and doesn't need to close to 45' first; and 2, that the character has a base speed of 30', while certain targets can have a lower base speed, so can an archer. (it also seems to assume that the combatants are facing off one-to-one.) now assuming that both of your requirements are met, now your archer is 75' away. who says that the target will close? what's to stop him from using his own missile weapons against you? now that you're both on even footing

*sigh* As I said I was just pointing out that all else being equal with the *current* rules a rogue archer from ambush will probably attack from 30ft away. Also, the odds are that someone in the group will have a speed of 30ft (that being the standard speed for Medium sized characters). Thus, with the current rules the odds that an ambusher could be engaged in melee after initiating the ambush is pretty high. By increasing the range to 45ft, the odds of the archer getting two rounds before someone can melee with him have increased. That's all I was saying.

Yes, all the conditions you pointed out are true. I'm not denying that or stating that it would be horribly unbalanced with a feat chain to get it. I was just pointing out that it would increase the odds of an archer getting an extra round of missle fire in than in the current rules. Someone asked why the 30ft range was a "sacred cow" and I was just offering some rationale. I wasn't saying that you were wrong for changing it with a feat chain, I was just trying to provide some insight. Also, I think Lord Pendragon pointed out some of the other possible issues.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

i play an archer as well.

Well it's no wonder you'd love to extend sneak attack range!

 

[Magnus]

... By increasing the range to 45ft, the odds of the archer getting two rounds before someone can melee with him have increased. That's all I was saying. ...

that's very true but, shouldn't a feat allow you to do that? especially a feat that has another as a requirement? isn't the good feat one that allows you to do something that you couldn't otherwise do? keep in mind that, as you pointed out, it increases the odds which may or may *not* have an actual effect. it'd be up to the players or DM to try to use their abilities to their greatest advantage.

apologies, IceBear, if i sounded snippy. i certainly didn't intend to.

Well it's no wonder you'd love to extend sneak attack range!

my archer is a ranger. no sneak attacks for me and he doesn't have the far shot feat

 

[IceBear]

That's ok Magus. Like I said, I didn't think that this was too bad for a feat chain, I was just giving some explanation on the 30ft sacred cow. Trust me, compared to other schemes to increase this 30ft range, this isn't bad at all.

IceBear

 

[Magnus]

thanks IceBear, your comments are appreciated. (very astute of you to recognise my "scheme" for what it is *MWAH HA HA HA HAAAA* ... *ahem*) but i never realised that there was a 30' "limit" ... much less that it was a "sacred cow." there seem to be so many things that change it already: heavy armour, barbarians, gnomes/halflings/dwarves, monks. never really seemed like a big deal to me. anyone else have any thoughts? ... anyone? ... *crickets chirping*