Point Buy and ECL in 3.5

[BluWolf]

ECL vs lower starting points

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I allow players in my game to use either the 4d6 methodolgy or a point buy system to generate stats, their choice.

I have seen some folks suggest that they will allow a player to take a +1ECL (or higher I suppose) race as a +0 race but they have fewer points to generate ability scores.

Example: Normally PCs would have 25 points to use for ability scores but if I player wanted to create a Teifling character as a +0 race, they would only have 17 points.

Does anyone have any experience with this approach? Does it really off set or pan out over time? Any good past discussions on the subject you all could point me to?
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[Voadam]

I do that as options in the two pbp games I run. You can see links in my sig (Wildwood and Death in Freeport).

My reasoning is that a problem with LA races under the standard rules is you get glass cannons from LA creatures having fewer HD and hp as combatants or lower spell power if they are spellcasters. I don't want LA combat races to be fragile in combat and I want PC LA casters to be competent with their spellcasting. I don't want really strong 1st level LA PCs next to normal 4th level PCs when trying to make challenges for a party, I want generally balanced vulnerabilities and powers.

Trading in point buy gives a different trade off of stat power versus racial power instead of level power versus racial power. I find this gives a better choice of power balances.

I also offer options for trading in point buy points for gestalt options.

I chose 8 points as the LA difference by looking at the monster elite versus standard array and the 1 CR difference it gets if you bump up monsters. This comes out to about 8 points of point buy. CR and LA are not synonymous but it was a good starting point and considering it the number feels right for the most part when considering most LA races.

I've had a few players choose LA races (tiefling, dover, chiao, modified warforged, half-dragon) but most still pick LA 0 races.

I would still watch out for LA races with lopsided powers. The half-dragon's 1/day breath weapon for 6d8 should really scale with level so it is not an unbalancing nuke at 1st level or immaterial at 16th.

 

[delericho]

Example: Normally PCs would have 25 points to use for ability scores but if I player wanted to create a Teifling character as a +0 race, they would only have 17 points.

Ouch. I wouldn't recommend going below 25 points for point buy. Even that is rather limiting.

Personally, I'd be inclined to offer 32 point buy as standard, with 28 points for a +1 LA race.

Additionally, I'm inclined to say players shouldn't use +2 or higher LA races, period. They just end up too weak. Although, if they really wanted, perhaps giving a 'free' level of Humanoid, and treating them as +1 LA races would work - it certainly has with the odd Drow PC thus far.

(Also, it's worth noting that that +0 LA Warforged are comparable, or perhaps superior, to the +1 LA Tiefling. That being the case, if running Eberron you could perhaps just drop the LA from some races without consequence.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ouch. I wouldn't recommend going below 25 points for point buy. Even that is rather limiting.

Personally, I'd be inclined to offer 32 point buy as standard, with 28 points for a +1 LA race.

That sounds much more reasonable to me, too. But, he's offering point buy or stat rolling with the standard 4d6 drop the lowest. While in my games I have no problem offering people who like to gamble an uneven playing field -- I give automatic 3/4 HD hp, or allow people to roll. Statistically, you'd be foolish not to take the 3/4, but some people still want to risk it -- the OP probably wants the steady and unsteady options to be "balanced."

(Also, it's worth noting that that +0 LA Warforged are comparable, or perhaps superior, to the +1 LA Tiefling. That being the case, if running Eberron you could perhaps just drop the LA from some races without consequence.)

Alternatively, make the Warforged +1 LA.

I think I like the lower point buy for LA concept, though it still makes certain options which don't increase stats much not too appealing. I think it's best to make +1 LA very affordable, and progressively make steeper costs as LA goes up. I also am damn sick of seeing parties 3/4 or 5/6 human, and almost never one of the non-core races, so I'm all for giving +LA races a slight mechanical edge to encourage their use.

One thing I'm thinking of is making point buy costs steeper for templates than races. Two main reasons. One, we generally found UA's LA buyoff mechanic slightly overpowered but ok for +LA races, but once you got to templates, it was ridiculous. See a nice +1 LA template you like? It can be yours! All for the low, low, price of 3000 xp! Of course, you'll recoup some of that as you gain more xp for being a level lower...
With races, you're pretty well stuck with what you choose, and race will often limit your character options. Templates, on the other hand, can just be added to anything you like, so there's a lot more freedom there.

Not sure how to implement this, though. Especially how to handle the odd case of taking +LA race and +LA template. I suppose I could just take the easy route and not allow that, but that's kinda lame...

 

[BluWolf]

Excellent feedback. This helps round out my thoughts.

Just to be clear, I think my example of point buy was bad. We use the 35 points for ability points. So to lower a +1 LA it should go down to 27. Good.

Now, should I allow folks to buy down there LA by rolling 3d6 instead of 4d6?