Point buy - How high do you go? (and why)
- Thread starter Glyfair
- Start date
Glyfair
Explorer
Wow Snowell, you really stepped into it when you posted your "suggested" Batman stats 
You could argue his stats for ages, simply because he is a comic book character with a large history. The very nature of the medium means his "stats" vary from writer to writer, medium to medium & era to era.
However, there is no question that all the versions of Batman says his Willpower is 2nd to none (well, except maybe Green Lantern). In D&D that stat is Wisdom and I don't see him having less than an 18. He also is known for his intimidation abilities, which are all based on Charisma. Combine that with his very forceful personality and there is little question that most versions of the Batman would have a very high Charisma (I'd say 16 minimum). The physical stats could be argued, mostly because there aren't any good benchmarks (although the modern Batman is generally considered to be in close to perfect physical condition).
Glyfair of Glamis
You could argue his stats for ages, simply because he is a comic book character with a large history. The very nature of the medium means his "stats" vary from writer to writer, medium to medium & era to era.
However, there is no question that all the versions of Batman says his Willpower is 2nd to none (well, except maybe Green Lantern). In D&D that stat is Wisdom and I don't see him having less than an 18. He also is known for his intimidation abilities, which are all based on Charisma. Combine that with his very forceful personality and there is little question that most versions of the Batman would have a very high Charisma (I'd say 16 minimum). The physical stats could be argued, mostly because there aren't any good benchmarks (although the modern Batman is generally considered to be in close to perfect physical condition).
Glyfair of Glamis
Camarath
Pale Master Tarrasque
As a player I have used point buy in the past, both a straight 28 point buy, which worked pretty well, and a custom system where your points depended on your class wizard 24 sorc 26 cleric 28 druid 30 fighter 32 barb 34 rouge 36 ranger 38 bard 40 paladin 42 monk 44, this setup also worked well but the rouge in our group was a little strong but I don't know is that was his scores or just powergaming. When I DM I usally go with what ever system the players want. I have found it easy enough deal with either high or low scrores. And, its always fun to apply the same system to some of the monsters the party faces. I have not run a game using a point buy system. We usally use some sort of 4d6 variant or a custom setup (3d6+6 4d6 2d6+6 3d6 1d6+6 2d6 arranged before rolling no rerolls or dropped dice, sometimes best of 3 sets) that the group seems to like.
Snoweel
First Post
Batman's "serious Will save" is due to his seriously high level.
As for his Charisma, are you kidding me?!?!?! You call Batman charismatic?!?!?!?
Please.
As for this:
Don't be ridiculous.
You're saying Batman is the pinnacle (or near to it) of human development?
Granted, the Str and Dex could be right, but 20 Dex - you obviously don't have much respect for a stat of 20.
Likewise these massive mental ability scores. There is no proof, nor need for these scores to be so high, and you are just cheapening the value of a 16 ability score (not to mention an 18).
As for his Charisma, are you kidding me?!?!?! You call Batman charismatic?!?!?!?
Please.
As for this:
Don't be ridiculous.
You're saying Batman is the pinnacle (or near to it) of human development?
Granted, the Str and Dex could be right, but 20 Dex - you obviously don't have much respect for a stat of 20.
Likewise these massive mental ability scores. There is no proof, nor need for these scores to be so high, and you are just cheapening the value of a 16 ability score (not to mention an 18).
Snoweel
First Post
I am merely showing that "Batman" could be made with 25 points and sufficient levels that his Will save, unarmed combat ability, Intimidation modifier and so on are still frickin' awesome.
There is no need for his ability scores to be any higher except to state that "40 points isn't enough to make Batman".
Bull****.
If 25 points is the maximum of any PC or NPC in your game, then 25 points is enough to make anybody beyond the super-human.
There is no need for his ability scores to be any higher except to state that "40 points isn't enough to make Batman".
Bull****.
If 25 points is the maximum of any PC or NPC in your game, then 25 points is enough to make anybody beyond the super-human.
Glyfair
Explorer
Snoweel said:
It could be if it wasn't for the fact that Batman is considered to have a high Willpower even among superheroes in his strata.
Snoweel said:
Absolutely, he has a forceful personality. He has shown many ways of getting people to do what he wants them to do. Part of the problem is that D&D assumes when you have a high charisma you are likeable. In real life, many of those that would be considered to have a high charisma are hated by as many people as love them. They always have a strong reaction, but which way it does depends on the person.
Snoweel said:
There is certainly support for Batman being close to the pinnacle of human development. Indeed, IIRC, the designers of one of the DC Heroes RPGs stated that Batman was the benchmark they had to use to determine how powerful a normal person was allowed to be.
Glyfair of Glamis
Last edited:
ForceUser
Explorer
Since Batman's an old fav of mine, I'll take a crack at it:
16 Str
16 Dex
16 Con
(He has honed his body to near-perfection.)
18 Int
16 Wis
16 Cha
(Int: Batman has invented untold numbers of gadgets, holds several college degrees in such things as criminology and psychology, and is a detective genius second only to Sherlock Holmes.)
(Wis: Batman's willpower is strong, given the rigors of physical and mental training he's subjected himself to, not to mention his indomitable spirit against foes who play with his mind - Joker, Scarecrow, and Bane have all learned what a survivor he is.)
(Cha: Batman is a dark, menacing figure who seeks to strike fear in the hearts of criminals [Intimidation.] Bruce Wayne, on the other hand, is a socialite playboy with legions of adoring women and envious men. He is suave, diplomatic, handsome, and cultured [Diplomacy.] Thus, Batman must have a high Charisma.)
16 Str
16 Dex
16 Con
(He has honed his body to near-perfection.)
18 Int
16 Wis
16 Cha
(Int: Batman has invented untold numbers of gadgets, holds several college degrees in such things as criminology and psychology, and is a detective genius second only to Sherlock Holmes.)
(Wis: Batman's willpower is strong, given the rigors of physical and mental training he's subjected himself to, not to mention his indomitable spirit against foes who play with his mind - Joker, Scarecrow, and Bane have all learned what a survivor he is.)
(Cha: Batman is a dark, menacing figure who seeks to strike fear in the hearts of criminals [Intimidation.] Bruce Wayne, on the other hand, is a socialite playboy with legions of adoring women and envious men. He is suave, diplomatic, handsome, and cultured [Diplomacy.] Thus, Batman must have a high Charisma.)
Glyfair
Explorer
Snoweel said:
Now this is "assuming facts not in evidence." The primary idea of point buy is to keep the players on an equal level. A secondary reason is to try to keep their natural ability at a certain level (a given encounter won't be as challenging to a 40 point buy party as it would be to a 25 point buy party). There is no reason to limit NPCs to that level.
Glyfair of Glamis
Last edited:
Sanackranib
First Post
point buy
I guess some of you folks are missing the point that stats were importent back in the old days of 1e and 2e was just an extension of that. when you start out knowing that anything less then a 15 or 16 has NO bonus. then those high stats become importent. when you consider the stats and saves of the more powerfull monsters that the characters are going up aginst then normal human stats just are not going to be sufficent in the heroic game. consider also:
STR= bonus to hit and damage/a few skills
INT= skills, even a 14 will double a non human fighters skill points!
WIS= saves/spells for divine casters/some importent skills
DEX= saves/effects lots of skills/bonus to AC
CON= hit points (who EVER has enough?)/saves/a couple of skills
CHA= leadership score/a fair ammount of skills/spells
so where do you take the hit? with most point buys its prohibitively expensive to buy anything over a 15 or 16. wnen you roll up a character using dice you always have the chance of getting better stats then somone using a fixed point buy because its possible to roll well on several stats and still get adverage rolls on the rest. even using 3d6 the adverage roll is 10.5 which is still higher then the start for a point buy (8)
I am curious if anyone has combined the methods with somthing like base of 6 and roll 2d6 generating a number between 8 and 18
with an adverage of 13? has anybody done that?
I guess some of you folks are missing the point that stats were importent back in the old days of 1e and 2e was just an extension of that. when you start out knowing that anything less then a 15 or 16 has NO bonus. then those high stats become importent. when you consider the stats and saves of the more powerfull monsters that the characters are going up aginst then normal human stats just are not going to be sufficent in the heroic game. consider also:
STR= bonus to hit and damage/a few skills
INT= skills, even a 14 will double a non human fighters skill points!
WIS= saves/spells for divine casters/some importent skills
DEX= saves/effects lots of skills/bonus to AC
CON= hit points (who EVER has enough?)/saves/a couple of skills
CHA= leadership score/a fair ammount of skills/spells
so where do you take the hit? with most point buys its prohibitively expensive to buy anything over a 15 or 16. wnen you roll up a character using dice you always have the chance of getting better stats then somone using a fixed point buy because its possible to roll well on several stats and still get adverage rolls on the rest. even using 3d6 the adverage roll is 10.5 which is still higher then the start for a point buy (8)
I am curious if anyone has combined the methods with somthing like base of 6 and roll 2d6 generating a number between 8 and 18
with an adverage of 13? has anybody done that?
Snoweel
First Post
Glyfair said:
Maybe the other superheroes are lower level than Batman. Hell, their powers/equipment are all better - there must be something that helps him compete.
I hereby declare it level.
Says you.
Skill ranks?
I think the problem is more with most peoples' interpretation of Charisma than D&D's interpretation.
I see Charisma as more of an "ability to influence people" than "likeability".
For example, two characters could say the exact same thing to two different NPCs and have entirely different results based on their Cha scores.
Agreed.
But skill ranks are far more important (especially at Batman's high level) than attribute bonuses.
Fair enough.
However, I have only gone by the movies (not a comic book fan) and he never seemed to be close to the "strongest, fastest, toughest" a person can be.
Now you're getting close to the assumption that there is only one type of intelligence, and that mental attributes should restrict or even shape roleplaying aspects.
The above could all be modelled by hard work and skill ranks in Knowledge, Craft and Profession gained by high levels.
High Will save = high level.
So you're saying that my low Wis character has to be a quitter for me to be roleplaying him correctly?
Why don't I just make my determined PCs (and they're all determined) all high-Wis characters in future.
20 ranks in Intimidation will do this far better than a +3 bonus from Cha.
d00d, rich people don't need Charisma to gain "legions of adoring women and envious men".
As above. A mere 5 Ranks in Diplomacy will accomplish this better than an 18 Cha.
QED???!!!???
You haven't had much practice at this, have you?
Good point.
However, I do limit my "exceptional" NPCs thusly. All others are somewhere between this and 15-point characters.
Just personal choice.
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