D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

neogod22

Explorer
So I have a legitimate question, and I'm asking in good faith. Is there a reason why your posts seem to be angry and insulting? Is it intentional, or do you not realize it?

Because I have no problem with you (or anybody) preferring point buy. The standard array and point buy are essential approaches if you prefer to plan your character out ahead of time, especially if you've preplanned things like multi classing, feats, etc. If you are the type that likes character builds, it gives you a known foundation to work from. They are usually fast approaches as well, and ensure "fairness" when people are creating characters at home.

My reasons for preferring rolling are because my preferences differ from those and also in several areas you've stated, and for several reasons you haven't.

1. Not a primary concern of ours.

2. See below.

3. We are playing what we want to play - D&D. As for specific classes, we prefer that that certain classes are as rare in the campaign as they are in the game world, and develop rules for that purpose (part of the response for #2).

4. Any character that fits within the boundaries of the rules cannot be, by definition, overpowered. They can be more powerful than other characters. We're OK with that. If we think something is too much, then we alter the rules (boundaries) to fix that.

5. We allow folks to roll more characters for many reasons, the primary reasons, however, are not because the first 5 were bad.

6. We enjoy session 0 for character creation, along with many other reasons. If we were having a session 0 only to create characters and we were trying to save time at the table, then the players would create their characters at home. We've done that plenty as well (and still do), but we prefer to do it at the table (also part of the response below).

I have literally sat tat the table too and had people create characters in 10 minutes too. If speed is your primary goal, then great! That's not our primary goal in character creation.

As the home group came together, and I/we* started tweaking the 5e rules, character generation was naturally one of the areas that we addressed.

We didn't like that 5e felt "too easy" as written, and that the characters felt "too powerful" either. This is entirely subjective, and there are a lot of reasons we felt that way. In addition, the characters tended to feel very similar, again for various reasons. In regards to generating ability scores, we asked what everybody preferred. Without exception, they all preferred to roll. There were a variety of reasons, but that was the result.

So as I'm tweaking the rules, with that information as well, I started questioning what I/we liked (or not) and why.

1. We much preferred to generate characters together. The social aspect of it is a big part, but also because there are more people available for ideas, and we're also tying that character to the ongoing campaign. This is an important enough aspect for us that when somebody new joins, or when somebody is creating a new character, we either make time to get together, or we do it at one of the regular sessions, instead of playing.

2. We strongly disliked that with point buy or a standard array that it became difficult to create "interesting" arrays. That is, when you are deciding where to put particular scores you tend to default to what makes the most sense for a specific class. So characters of those classes were very similar stat-wise. If you don't have a class or goal in mind, it can be quite difficult to assign stats.

3. Point buy and standard arrays didn't provide any inspiration. It was OK if you were sitting down with an idea of what you wanted the character to be, but without any random generation of anything, there was no catalyst for an idea. On the other hand, sitting down and rolling (as I'm doing now) STR 13, INT 12, WIS 11, DEX 10, CON 14, CHA 13 might.

4. Those stats I just rolled are perfect, because they also play into the next point. We like the rules to support the game world. So one of our rules (rather than a mechanical one) is that at least two of every three characters is human. We're not trying to incentivize ourselves by making the mechanical aspects of the race in the game more attractive. It's just a simple demographic thing, 80% of the world is human, and we want that to be largely represented in the characters we make. In addition, we want the stat generation to reflect the general population. So we do have mechanical rules for level limits, qualifying for classes, etc. We like that it's hard to roll a paladin. That's the way we want it. We want the most common characters to be fighter and rogue, and we want that to be supported by the rules.

Part of that is that most people are average, or slightly above average in the area they focus. Our point-buy number is 69 - enough to make three 11s and three 12s. We didn't stick with a traditional method of rolling, because 4d6dL trends higher than we like, and 3d6 trends lower. So we came up (after testing the math) with 3d6 reroll 1s, once. It's not perfect, but it's much closer.

Because I/we aren't the only people that play in our games, and we recognize that we haven't set any boundaries for low/high rolls, we want to make it more feasible for other players who don't share the same thought process as us. In addition, we recognize that sometimes you just roll something bad that's not working for you. And really, our rules of "roll 6 sets and pick one" are to put something on paper. We really haven't limited people to 6, but on the other hand, if somebody is on roll #18, then they probably have different goals in mind. It's also why we allow the standard array or point buy too.

When you're sitting at my table, I encourage you to use the system that the table has chosen for their preferred method. But the other options in the PHB are open to you as well. Recognize that you will probably have higher abilities than most characters at the table (which is usually why they want it, since they are used to a point buy/array of 72 points or more). But that's fine, we can work with that.

--

So I'll respond more directly to your point #2. We aren't making stupid rules to get good rolls. We're making (in my opinion) well considered decisions to identify our goals, look at the process, and attempting to develop a process that meets our goals, while retains a core D&D "feel" and simplicity.

Roll 3d6, reroll 1s once, and record them in order (we still use SIWDCCha - I guess that's a nod to tradition, or more likely just the way I automatically say them after all these years). It's simple, and doable.

I don't think "tradition" is a good reason to do just about anything (and in a prior life, my job was specifically to challenge the processes we used in our business, and if "tradition" was the only reason we were doing it, it probably wasn't a very good process). On the other hand, whenever I'm making changes to the rules, I think it's quite important for them to still "feel" like D&D. Even though we have a lot of house rules, and can explain the reasons for them, somebody who has played D&D should be able to sit down at our table and agree that we're actually playing D&D and not another game.

I've come up with several approaches to the goals we have. One that I'm still considering is that you generate each stat as 6 + 2d6. That guarantees you'll never have less than 8 for a stat, and that would trend at a 12 for every stat, I think (72). Feels like it would trend higher.

Quick test: S18, I17, W16, D15, C12, Cha17. Yes. I just rolled that. A definite outlier, although not being a math guy, I'll have to go do some work to see if my 12 trend is right...it still seems like it should work!

Anyway, use what works for you.

*I'm pretty much the author of the house rules. But they are sparked by, tested, and approved by the table. Some of them are my idea, some are one or more of the player's ideas. No rule (official or house) survives at our table without the support of the players.
If you feel that my posts are angry, then it's a failing on your part for your emotional attachment to my writing. I merely stated my opinion. I really don't care how you feel about it. The problem is, you all are feel like it's a battle or fight that you need to win the war on words, and keep quoting my posts and attacking me directly so I respond. I couldn't care less how you wish to play the game. The only post I had a problem with was the one who said "I make my characters roll in order for their stats and have to play the game based off that," and the reason I have a problem is because it stifles creativity. Like I said, I will leave if someone tried to tell me that. The reality is, you're not going to change my opinion on rolling stats. I don't play at your table and you don't play at mine, so what's the point in keeping this going?

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Jacob Marley

Adventurer
2. That rolling gives higher than standard array most of the time. First, I'd dispute this because statistically it can't be correct. Observationally, I'd suggest that people tend to remember the ones that were higher than normal. Particularly if they are the type of player that has a focus on ability scores, character builds, etc., it's probably more noticeable. Not all folks rolling are doing so because they might roll higher than the standard array. I'm sure some do. I'd say to some degree, if that's the goal, then they should be held to the result of their roll.

Whether or not rolling results in an array higher than the standard array depends on the generation system you use as well. In my case, I use 4d6 drop the lowest, arrange to taste, if your highest stat is 13 or less or the total ability modifier is +0 or less, then you are entitled to re-roll all six stats. When I aggregate my player's PC's initial stats to form an array, I get the following: 15.8, 14.7, 13.3, 12.0, 11.0, 9.0. This array is certainly higher than the standard array; but that's exactly what I want!
 

Oofta

Legend
'Forcing someone to play a dwarf' would mean that they have to play a PC they don't like for an entire campaign. That could be a long time!

'Forcing someone to create their PC using 4d6k3'.....actually is not forcing them to play a PC they don't like!

We simply disagree. In the last game we used point buy, my wife's rolls sucked. Another gal's rolls were a statistical anomaly high. Neither was happy with the character they were forced to play because the numbers for my wife did not allow her to build the hero she envisioned and the other gal was uncomfortable being so much more powerful out of the box.

It's the difference between given two meals - half a bowl of runny cold gruel or a filet from a five star restaurant (or whatever else your heart desires).

Stats and game rules don't define a character, but they do support the vision.

But two things: first, it is possible that people make provably incorrect statements, or misleading statements, about their reasons for their preferences. 'Point-buy means that everyone can play what they want to play' is such a statement.

Once again, I simply disagree. Obviously there are always going to be constraints and limitations, that's part of the game. But I don't see how someone can look at two sets of stats (multiple 18's nothing lower than a 14 vs high of 14, a 10 multiple stats below 10) and say that the effective character options are the same.

Second, the idea that a game uses your second favourite method means you'd walk away from the game? Really? That is either hyperbole or a revealing insight into your personality.
All I can tell you is that my wife and I have discussed this. If the DM is dead set on roll 4d6 drop lowest no other option we would not join the game. Of course we both DM so it's not like we'd be out of a game, just that that that particular game is not for us. Life is too short and I have too many gaming opportunities to be forced to play a gimped character I don't want to play.

No different than if I had insisted that everyone play a dwarf for my campaign.

But thanks for the implication that if I don't want to play your way I'm somehow psychologically damaged.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That's one method of balance, but not one I agree with. In many of these arguments, a single point of difference is virtually game breaking to some folks. And I just don't agree with that. But if it's that important to the group, then yes, there will be no random generation system that will meet those goals.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...myself and [MENTION=1003]Irda Ranger[/MENTION] both posted methods that produce organic results, but bounded to a fixed total.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If you feel that my posts are angry, then it's a failing on your part for your emotional attachment to my writing. I merely stated my opinion. I really don't care how you feel about it. The problem is, you all are feel like it's a battle or fight that you need to win the war on words, and keep quoting my posts and attacking me directly so I respond. I couldn't care less how you wish to play the game. The only post I had a problem with was the one who said "I make my characters roll in order for their stats and have to play the game based off that," and the reason I have a problem is because it stifles creativity. Like I said, I will leave if someone tried to tell me that. The reality is, you're not going to change my opinion on rolling stats. I don't play at your table and you don't play at mine, so what's the point in keeping this going?

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Then it's me, and I won't worry about it.

When I read posts that call me or my approach bulls*t, stupid and the like, and your desire to punch people in the face, I'm not sure if you're attempting to make a joke, or not. Rather than make assumptions, I thought I'd ask for clarification.

I have no desire to change your (or anybody's) opinion on rolling stats. I've asked if you've tried it, and it appears that others felt my response in that post was attempting to change peoples minds. As I stated, and will state again that isn't my intent. I'm responding to your posts and others because I think that discussions like this can be very beneficial. I learn a lot from when folks explain what they do and why, and have often changed my approach because of it. It also often helps me clarify why I do what I do. I think that's kind of the point of the forums.

I'm not sure where I attacked you directly, but I apologize if that's how I came across.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...myself and [MENTION=1003]Irda Ranger[/MENTION] both posted methods that produce organic results, but bounded to a fixed total.

I must have missed those. I'll start digging through the thread. Always looking for options and ideas...

But I wasn't just talking about being bounded to a fixed total. I was also commenting about specific comments in other threads where a character at creation having a single point of difference made a particular combination "unplayable." I know that's an extreme, but if that one point is that important, any random determination fails the test.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I must have missed those. I'll start digging through the thread. Always looking for options and ideas...

But I wasn't just talking about being bounded to a fixed total. I was also commenting about specific comments in other threads where a character at creation having a single point of difference made a particular combination "unplayable." I know that's an extreme, but if that one point is that important, any random determination fails the test.
Yea, I agree that even if play balance and fidelity to character concept are your highest priorities, a single point of stat difference is mostly meaningless.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I've come up with several approaches to the goals we have. One that I'm still considering is that you generate each stat as 6 + 2d6. That guarantees you'll never have less than 8 for a stat
Which only serves to replicate one of the issues I have with point buy and array systems - you just can't get a really low stat (whether you want it or not :) )

Otherwise I quite like your approach.
Arial Black said:
'Forcing someone to play a dwarf' would mean that they have to play a PC they don't like for an entire campaign.
That tells me you're a lot more optimistic about character survival rates than I am. :)

'Forcing someone to create their PC using 4d6k3'.....actually is not forcing them to play a PC they don't like! You are the one who makes your PC, even if it begins with six scores that you didn't choose. Guess what, using the standard array is also starting with six scores you didn't choose! Using point-buy is starting with a total you didn't choose! It's a complaint which doesn't hold water.
Agreed.

Though to play devil's advocate for a second: when pre-designing one's character in a PB or array system at least you know going in what the numbers you didn't choose will be. And I think that plays into the thought process of some (many?) who prefer PB/array: they want the stability, and don't like not knowing.

For me, not knowing is half the fun! :)

Lanefan
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Though to play devil's advocate for a second: when pre-designing one's character in a PB or array system at least you know going in what the numbers you didn't choose will be. And I think that plays into the thought process of some (many?) who prefer PB/array: they want the stability, and don't like not knowing.

For me, not knowing is half the fun! :)
Which ties back into the central thesis of this whole thread...knowing your personal (and those of your tablemates) preferences makes for a better game; point-buy, roll, or anywhere in between.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Whether or not rolling results in an array higher than the standard array depends on the generation system you use as well. In my case, I use 4d6 drop the lowest, arrange to taste, if your highest stat is 13 or less or the total ability modifier is +0 or less, then you are entitled to re-roll all six stats. When I aggregate my player's PC's initial stats to form an array, I get the following: 15.8, 14.7, 13.3, 12.0, 11.0, 9.0. This array is certainly higher than the standard array; but that's exactly what I want!
What I look at is the overall average. The numbers you give here average out to 12.63.

A while back I did a bunch of analysis on a somewhat random few hundred characters we've had in our games over the years, and the overall starting average worked out to about 13.3 after racial adjustments - which is fine given that a) our rolling system is more generous and b) our bonuses don't kick in until 15 anyway.

What really surprised me was how little difference there was between the stat averages of characters who died fairly soon (say, a career of <5 adventures) and characters who lasted a long time (10 or more adventures); which told me (somewhat unexpectedly) that starting stats are a quite poor predictor of projected career length. There was also quite a wide variance within both the die-quicks and the long-termers, again telling me that the importance of starting stats is perhaps overrated.

Now one could, I suppose, dive deeper in and see if a 13 average made up of 13-13-13-13-13-13 does better or worse than 18-12-12-12-12-12 or 16-16-13-13-10-10...but I'm not about to. :)

Lan-"much more reliable indicators of projected career length turned out to be class and - to a lesser extent - race"-efan
 

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