D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Arial Black

Adventurer
Actually, that's not true. In three editions now, that has been refuted.

Okay, I'm listening...

3ed - NPC's are given straight 10's unless they are Elite, in which case they use the Elite array. An NPC flat out cannot have a base stat higher than 15 (before level and racial adjustments of course).

So, your contention is that, elites aside, that the 3e rules are that every single normal person has exactly 10 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis and 10 Cha? What an absurd population that would be!

The correct interpretation is that these are pre-generated NPCs, not that these are the only possible scores for normal people!

5ed - NPC's, other than specific individuals where stats can be rolled but aren't necessary - states that NPC's don't have stats at all.

Rubbish! "You don't need to roll their stats if their stats aren't going to come up in play" does not equal "NPCs don't have Str or Int or Cha at all"! In fact, it says that if you want to know what they are then roll them on 3d6. This is 5e, not in the mists of time!

So, no, 3d6 in order has not been true for the general population in 3 editions now. I'm not sure what 2e said.

3d6 in order remains the background against which PCs and NPCs are measured, and against which we measure any pre-gens we want to use to make our lives easier.

Really, every single normal person has exactly 10 in every ability and if not then you are breaking the rules? Absurd!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Arial Black

Adventurer
Nobody on this thread has ever said the standard array or point buy should be used for the general populace.

What should the numbers be? Heck if I know, it's not relevant to the game. I can tell you that I think it's silly to assume a method that makes 1 in every 216 people is as mentally handicapped as possible is a viable method.

It's relevant to our debate. The reason this debate took this turn was that you asserted that point-buy lets you have the concept you want, and I refuted it by pointing out that the huge majority of possible arrays of 3-18 in six scores was not possible. Since the general population has scores from 3-18 (even in 5E), and that the average score is 10.5, and that the 3d6 bell curve has been used time and time again in every edition (including in 5e), we can extrapolate the truth that the general population is modelled on 3d6, even if that bell curve is flatter than the real world population.

Since scores as low as 3 and as high as 18 are possible in the normal population, and since any member of the normal population could conceptually end up as an adventurer, then point-buy does not give me 'what I want'. Rolling can. Rolling leaves plenty of variation, just like real people. Rolling might not be a perfectly realistic way to generate either PCs or NPCs, but it is exponentially more realistic than point-buy or array or "every person has exactly 10 in all six ability scores".
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
It's relevant to our debate.

It really isn't. How stats for the general population are generated (if they even are) has no effect on how stats are generated player characters. As proven by all the different methods available for generating stats for PC's - from the many different rolling options, to point buy, to array.

NPC stats don't matter, full stop.

Pretending that there is a world of NPC's with stats that "conceptually" could become adventurers is just that - pretending. It's an assumption you are making to support your position because actual logic won't suffice. Just because you make the assumption doesn't make it true.
 
Last edited:

Oofta

Legend
It's relevant to our debate. The reason this debate took this turn was that you asserted that point-buy lets you have the concept you want, and I refuted it by pointing out that the huge majority of possible arrays of 3-18 in six scores was not possible. Since the general population has scores from 3-18 (even in 5E), and that the average score is 10.5, and that the 3d6 bell curve has been used time and time again in every edition (including in 5e), we can extrapolate the truth that the general population is modelled on 3d6, even if that bell curve is flatter than the real world population.

Since scores as low as 3 and as high as 18 are possible in the normal population, and since any member of the normal population could conceptually end up as an adventurer, then point-buy does not give me 'what I want'. Rolling can. Rolling leaves plenty of variation, just like real people. Rolling might not be a perfectly realistic way to generate either PCs or NPCs, but it is exponentially more realistic than point-buy or array or "every person has exactly 10 in all six ability scores".

So? We don't know what the distribution should be. It doesn't matter if the scale is 3-18 or 1-100. We don't know what a realistic distribution should be, all we know is that 3d6 gives a distribution that does not reflect real world experience.

As far as the populace at large, we don't need to know what their ability scores are so it's irrelevant. Or as [MENTION=284]Caliban[/MENTION] says: NPC stats don't matter, full stop.
 

D

dco

Guest
NPCs will have the abilities, feats, attacks, saves, etc the DM wants, but if he wants he can choose any method to determine them from distance of spits to rolling dice. Completely irrelevant.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
3ed - NPC's are given straight 10's unless they are Elite, in which case they use the Elite array. An NPC flat out cannot have a base stat higher than 15 (before level and racial adjustments of course).
Or they can be created like PCs...

4ed - NPC's, other than very specific individuals - are not given stats whatsoever. They have whatever skill bonus the DM feels is appropriate and that's it.
Possibilities for NPCs in 4e included statting as monsters, as Companion Characters, as charater-class-templated Elite monsters, and, of course, as PCs. All of those options include stats. The stats are just arbitrarily assigned by the DM in most of them.

5ed - NPC's, other than specific individuals where stats can be rolled but aren't necessary
Stat's don't have to be rolled, I thought, was the phrasing?

In a previous edition that was published over a decade ago, which has nothing to do with 5E.
But what a book published nearly 40 years ago has to do with 5E is still beyond me, other than a little bit of historical trivia.
5e's all about evoking the classic game, and during the playtest, Mike Mearls seemed to put a lot of contemplation - and polling - into exactly what that was, including going all the way back to the early days.

Gabrielle was a PC.
Maybe. Could've been DNPC (to go all Hero System). ;) Could've been an NPC someone started playing later...
Was she generated using the same number of points as Xena?
Depends on the system and how it weights abilities... Not in D&D, presumably, but D&D generally couldn't do either of them at all well, anyway.

What about Hercules and Iolus?
Same thing, really. Iolus is a sidekick, D&D generally couldn't do either character that well.

It's relevant to our debate. The reason this debate took this turn was that you asserted that point-buy lets you have the concept you want, and I refuted it by pointing out that the huge majority of possible arrays of 3-18 in six scores was not possible.
Rather, you refuted a straw man, that point-buy would let you build any array of six stats with a range of 3-18 each. Which is very different from playing the concept you want, which, presumably, includes a class & race, and includes playing it in a party, with other character-concepts that might have a bearing on what your numbers actually mean.

Of the two specific methods given in 5e, the variant point-buy method gives the player more freedom to play the concept he wants when he sits down, it can be used to build a fairly large number of different arrays, letting the player pick and arrange the one that best supports the desired concept. The default method gives the player exactly one array, if he takes the standard array instead of rolling, he has 6 different stats to arrange as he likes, giving him essentially 5 meaningful choices in distributing them. If he rolls, again, he gets exactly one array, he just has no control over what that array may be, but, whatever it is, it gives him at most 5 meaningful choices in arranging it - fewer if there are any duplicate numbers.

Rolling might not be a perfectly realistic way to generate either PCs or NPCs, but it is exponentially more realistic than point-buy or array or "every person has exactly 10 in all six ability scores".
Neither PC method in 5e is remotely realistic, both tending to give far too-capable results for a general population, and the fact they including a player arranging the stats prettymuch renders them nonsensical for the purpose (yes, the DM can do it, but a general population isn't 'designed' like that). Presumably, some variation on a system would be used for the general population, if, indeed, anything like an individual system were used, at all, which is, really a bit of a stretch - on one's actually going to do that, I don't think, it seems prohibitive, though I suppose you could fairly easily write a program to psuedo-randomly or methodically create an NPC population in detail.

So the question is realism seems, to me, to become an almost trivially distinction. Clearly, random should have the edge in terms of realism, or, at least, realistic-verisimilitude, but, with the default 5e method, the option of taking the array and the ability to arrange stats blows any sort of process-sim/associated-mechanics/v-tude 'realism' out of the water. It really takes random-in-order, and random generation of other non-character-influenced statistics (like the social class you're born into), before you get a big jump in realism delivered.

There is something, though, to rolling 4d6k3 & arrange, when the traditional assumption is you're coming out of a 3d6 in order population. V-tude, perhaps, or internal consistency. It feels like a model of a self- and circumstance-/merit- selected 'elite' - adventurers.

How stats for the general population are generated (if they even are) has no effect on how stats are generated player characters. As proven by all the different methods available for generating stats for PC's - from the many different rolling options, to point buy, to array.
Sure, but there's a clear relationship between 4d6k3/arrange and 3d6-in-order. It may not mean anything, but it doesn't need to in order to provide 'feel.'
 

Satyrn

First Post
Gabrielle was a PC. Was she generated using the same number of points as Xena?

What about Hercules and Iolus?

I alluded to this before when you asked me how my certain of DM decisions, leading to illogical world building, could help judge which PC generation system is better.

Then, as now, I feel like your questions suggest you don't care about my view on this subject, that you're not interested in a conversation about the way we do things, and you're just trying to hammer home your view as the right view.

But I'll answer your question: I wil happily concede that Gabrielle was built with fewer points than Xena.** But yet again, back to where I started, that answer is irrelevant to how I want to run my game, what I want to get out of the game. I'm flat out not interested in playing a game of D&D where the one PC is Xena and the other is Gabrielle.*


Caveat time! (In reverse)
* unless the players truly, specifically want to play hero/sidekick setup, but tbat is not my default.

**although conceivably Xena and Gabrielle were built with the same points, and Xena's long long backstory has given her not just numerous benefits from leveling, but also stat increases through boons granted for being Ares chosen (or daughter! ), for joining the ranks of the Valkyrie, for being a witch's protege, for training in mystical China, for . . . the list goes on. She wzs a ridiculously well travelled adventurer with lots of XP before she ever hooked up with met Gabrielle. That could explain their difference. Likewise with Iolus and Hercules, they could have been built with the same number of points, but Hercules be given a Demigod template that obliterates their equality. But - and I want to emphasize this - but this is irrelevant to the heart of your question, because it still creates a power divide between the characters, and I on,y include it as a testamentary sidebar to my Xena fandom. :blush:
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Sure, but there's a clear relationship between 4d6k3/arrange and 3d6-in-order. It may not mean anything, but it doesn't need to in order to provide 'feel.'

Still meaningless when it comes to comparing NPC's and PC's. It may have meant something in 3e when monsters and NPC's were built using the same rules as PC's, but in 5e they explicitly use different rules. Look at all the NPC stats in the back of the MM - they can do things PC's of the equivalent level can't do, and they can't do things PC's of an equivalent class can do.

They simply don't use the same rules PC's do.
 

Oofta

Legend
Gabrielle was a PC. Was she generated using the same number of points as Xena?

What about Hercules and Iolus?

These are examples of what I would not want in a game. Why have one person playing Hercules while another is forced to play Joxer?

If that's the type of game you enjoy, go for it. It's just not for me.

On the other hand the Ocean's 11+ movies, Fast and Furious, movies where there's a team of well qualified individuals all with their own specialties? That works for me.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Since the general population has scores from 3-18 (even in 5E), and that the average score is 10.5, and that the 3d6 bell curve has been used time and time again in every edition (including in 5e), we can extrapolate the truth that the general population is modelled on 3d6, even if that bell curve is flatter than the real world population.

What do you mean by, "the 3d6 bell curve has been used time and time again in every edition (including in 5e)"? I don't see a single reference to 3d6 in 5e. Yes, the range of scores derives from 3d6 in the original game -- a PC generation method, -- but that's as far as it goes. Asserting that your extrapolation is true doesn't make it so. The game makes no such assumption.

Since scores as low as 3 and as high as 18 are possible in the normal population, and since any member of the normal population could conceptually end up as an adventurer, then point-buy does not give me 'what I want'. Rolling can. Rolling leaves plenty of variation, just like real people. Rolling might not be a perfectly realistic way to generate either PCs or NPCs, but it is exponentially more realistic than point-buy or array or "every person has exactly 10 in all six ability scores".

Why? The results of point-buy, the standard array, and the array of the Commoner NPC are all possible results of taking the highest three dice of 4d6. Why are the numbers more realistic when rolled?
 

Remove ads

Top