D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Lanefan]

Side note. Should be a background.

Yeah, that'd work too, all joking aside.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't agree, but that might be due to how I approach character building. I'm constantly coming up with character concepts that I want to play. Far too many for me to ever be able to put into action. Rolling can't prevent me from playing what I want. It can only help me decide which of the many concepts I'm going to play this time.

Yeah, that's not disagreeing. It's not that rolling is letting you play what you want, it's that you're letting the roll decide what you want to play.

Which is a strength of random generation: if you're stuck for a concept (or, in your case, can't make up your mind on which one to go for atm), it can inspire you in a way that point-buy or array cannot (unless you just happen to roll the standard array, I guess....).

The game has to be designed in a way that people with higher and lower than average stats can do well and the game will function properly.

There's not really a way to do that. It can design for the average, and simply let lucky rolls give you characters that are 'just better,' rather like the way it handles magic items. Assume no items, a +1 sword means the PC who finds it is 'just better.' Assume average rolls, a PC who gets lucky and starts with an 18 is 'just better.'

 

[Lanefan]

1) You get all below average rolls. You get to play a terribly infective dude. (You can do this with point buy as well if you decide to not use all of your points).
2) You get all average rolls. You get to play a mostly infective dude. (You can do this with point buy as well if you decide to not use all of your points).

I think for these two you mean 'ineffective', as infective just tells me to make sure I have 'Cure Disease' prepared at all times.

3) You get one good roll with the rest average or below. You get to play a narrowly effective dude.

In 5e, maybe. In 3e this would be as good as anything, as that edition really rewarded razor-sharp focus on one thing; whatever that thing may have been.

4) You get two good rolls with the rest average or below. You get to play an effective dude
5) You get three good rolls with the rest average or below. You get a lot of options, you can go for a very competent dude, or an effective dude with a quirky bonus perk
6) You get four or more good rolls with the rest average or below. You are good to go with mostly anything you want you have rolled to have your cake and eat it too.

This all assumes, of course, that starting stats really make that much difference in the long run particularly in a higher-lethality campaign.

Also, if all your rolls are below average (with average being 12.24 this would mean everything 12 or lower) as per your option 1, most DMs I've ever met - incuding me - would allow a reroll from scratch.

Point buy cuts out the randomness and allows either a 3 with a really high stat or a 4 with fairly good stats.

What are you defining as 'really high' and 'fairly good'? To me 17-18 is 'really high' and you can't even get there with point buy....

Lanefan

 

[Tony Vargas]

Also, if all your rolls are below average (with average being 12.24 this would mean everything 12 or lower) as per your option 1, most DMs I've ever met - incuding me - would allow a reroll from scratch.

Yeah, that's certainly true.
It does kinda undermine part of the point of it, though, in a way. I mean, it sounds fair enough in the sense that you risk poorer stats for a chance (a pretty good chance, really) of getting better stats (relative to both array & point buy). But when that risk is minimized because you can just get a do-over...

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, that's certainly true.
It does kinda undermine part of the point of it, though, in a way. I mean, it sounds fair enough in the sense that you risk poorer stats for a chance (a pretty good chance, really) of getting better stats (relative to both array & point buy). But when that risk is minimized because you can just get a do-over...

Well, you can still get poor stats - just not poor across the board.

My rule is that if everything is 13 or lower (in 5e I'd make it 12 or lower) or if the average of the six rolls is less than 10.0 then you can choose to try again. So while 12-12-12-12-12-12 could be redone you'd be stuck with 14-12-10-9-9-6.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, that's not disagreeing. It's not that rolling is letting you play what you want, it's that you're letting the roll decide what you want to play.

Nah. Almost! It's letting the roll decide what I will play. I want to play all of them.

Which is a strength of random generation: if you're stuck for a concept (or, in your case, can't make up your mind on which one to go for atm), it can inspire you in a way that point-buy or array cannot (unless you just happen to roll the standard array, I guess....).

That's true. I've seen rolls inspire people before.

There's not really a way to do that. It can design for the average, and simply let lucky rolls give you characters that are 'just better,' rather like the way it handles magic items. Assume no items, a +1 sword means the PC who finds it is 'just better.' Assume average rolls, a PC who gets lucky and starts with an 18 is 'just better.'

Maybe. I'm curious which it is.

 

[Yardiff]

Chances are, if I'm playing a barbarian (should be a race not a class - got to get that in at every opportunity!) I'll be the only barbarian - and possibly the only front-liner at all - in the party, so no real fear of my undermining anyone else's barbarian or fighter concept.

Lan-"I've been giving serious thought to re-doing the whole armour system in 1e anyway"-efan

More a background than a race really.

Ninja by a couple hours. Happens when you reply to a post a page or 2 back.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nah. Almost! It's letting the roll decide what I will play. I want to play all of them.

As a counter to the fact that point buy lets everyone play the character they want, that is completely meaningless, pedantic, and disingenuous.

It is, however, an excellent attitude with which to approach rolling up a character.

That's true. I've seen rolls inspire people before.

One thing I like about roll-in-order, if I'm going to use random generation, at all, use random generation that's genuinely random, not re-jiggered or under-cut or second-guessed. Play what you get, figure out something interesting to do with it.

Maybe. I'm curious which it is.

The approach to magic items has been stated as such. A character who gets a +1 sword is 'just better,' he's ahead of the curve. Same clearly goes for a random-roll character who ends up with a STR score 2 points better than expected (whatever 'expected' may have been), he's +1 ahead of the curve. He stays ahead of the curve until everyone has caught up to him at 20, and then he's ahead on feats (if used) or secondary characteristics...

Just better is just better.

 

[Yardiff]

As a counter to the fact that point buy lets everyone play the character they want, that is completely meaningless, pedantic, and disingenuous.

QUOTE]

Standard point buy lets those who are fine with a starting stat maxed at 15 before race. That doesn't include "everyone".

 

[Tony Vargas]

Standard point buy lets those who are fine with a starting stat maxed at 15 before race. That doesn't include "everyone".

It does include everyone, in the context of everyone else.
I mean, there may be plenty of folks who would want a pre-racial 16 or 20 or 25 ("But the game only goes up to 20, its a hard cap!" "Don't care, I get a 25 or I'm not getting 'what I want' and your game just plain sucks!") or whatever. But that's just a way of expressing 'high.' 15 is as high as pre-racial gets in one version of point-buy. High could be higher or lower in variations thereof. Point is, if you want a given stat to be high, and you pump it up to the max for your non-random generation method, then take a race with a +2 adjustment, you can be quite confident you actually have a high stat. If you put your best roll in a stat you want 'high,' you have no such guarantee - unless you got particularly lucky, and rolled the maximum possible with the random generation method you're using, that is.

So, yes, it is in the context of 'everyone.' Not just anyone who happens to get lucky, but everyone who sits down to build a character.