Point buy vs. rolling

[gustavef]

Just and old fashion cowboy

Personaly, I like the risk and reward of rolling. But with out some intervention on the part of the DM, characters can be too powerful or too weak, compaired to the rest of the party.

I never did point but charaters in earlier versions of DnD since all stats were far from eqaul. Now, every stat has it uses. Maybe not to all characters all the time, but they have uses.

I agree that point buy characters are too "effecient" and rolled characters can be to "varient." So in the end, neither system is better. The solve different problems.

-gustavef

 

[Nail]

Our group has always used the 4d6 method, rearrange as desired, tho' we also allow the player ta roll up 2 sets of stats in that manner -- then pick the best set. Avoids the unpleasantries of low stats, but allows for the fun o' chance.

An' the 5d6 method isn't as outlandish as ya might think.....

To be honest, the method mentioned of rolling 3d6 and then adding a few extra points intriqued me........

-Nail

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I really had hoped not to get involved with it.

Referring to S&P, it was the first really point buy system for D&D and it showed me the ugly side of min/maxing. The characters seemed hopelessly distorted if the player was willing to specialize.

I rather prefer the idea of assigning your best stat instead of having "sacrificial stats".

And that's about all I am willing to say. If you like point buy, fine, have fun with it. I am not going to get in another flame war:
1) Today, in general.
2) On this topic, ever.

Thanks. I understand not wanting to go on a tangent.

You do make a good point however. I have seen some Int 8, Wis 8, Chr 8 fighters. It is a weakness of point buy.

 

[kenjib]

Okay, I'm going to try out my system using a 25 point baseline and no fudging. I realized that I had to add two clarifications to get the system working:

1. When calculating point total, any score of 8 or lower is worth 0 points.
2. Raising any score from 3 to 7 is done on a point for point basis.

ATTEMPT 1 - THE FIGHTER

Roll 1: 1, 1, 4 = 6 = Str
Roll 2: 2, 1, 6 = 9 = Dex
Roll 3: 4, 1, 1 = 6 = Con
Roll 4: 5, 6, 2 = 13 = Int
Roll 5: 6, 6, 6 = 18 = Wis
Roll 6: 2, 1, 6 = 9 = Cha

I'll swap wisdom and strength. Total point value is 22, 3 below baseline. This means I get 4 points to spend. I'm putting them all into con, giving me:

Str: 18
Dex: 9
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 6
Cha: 9

I qualify for expertise and have a devastating strength but suffer from some drawbacks as a result of natural shortcomings. The low wisdom is quirky and could be fun.


ATTEMPT 2 - THE WIZARD

Roll 1: 1, 5, 5 = 11 = str
Roll 2: 4, 2, 4 = 10 = dex
Roll 3: 3, 3, 3 = 9 = con
Roll 4: 5, 3, 5 = 13 = int
Roll 5: 1, 2, 6 = 9 = wis
Roll 6: 5, 4, 5 = 14 = cha

I'll swap charisma and constitution. Total point value is 18. This gives me 7 extra points to spend. I'll bump int to 16, costing 5 points, then dex to 12, costing 2 more.

str: 11
dex: 12
con: 14
int: 16
wis: 9
cha: 9

Nice - pretty close to what you'd get with standard point spread but a little bit tweaked to account for natural ability.

ATTEMPT 3 - THE ROGUE

Roll 1: 4, 4, 3 = 11 = str
Roll 2: 6, 1, 5 = 12 = dex
Roll 3: 2, 5, 6 = 13 = con
Roll 4: 1, 6, 2 = 9 = int
Roll 5: 3, 1, 3 = 7 = wis
Roll 6: 5, 4, 6 = 15 = cha

I'll swap dex and cha. Total point value is 21. I get four more points to spend. I'll bump dex to 16, and raise int and wis both by 1.

str: 11
dex: 16
con: 13
int: 10
wis: 8
cha: 12

Nice - very workable. It's close to standard point spread but the abilities aren't quite where a rogue would most likely place them.


ATTEMPT 4 - THE CLERIC

Roll 1: 5, 5, 4 = 14 = str
Roll 2: 3, 3, 1 = 7 = dex
Roll 3: 1, 6, 1 = 8 = con
Roll 4: 2, 1, 1 = 4 = int
Roll 5: 3, 4, 1 = 8 = wis
Roll 6: 3, 6, 6 = 15 = cha

I'll swap cha and wis. Total point value is 14 so I get 11 points to spend. I'll raise wis by 1 (to 16), int to 8, con to 10, dex to 8, and cha to 10.

str: 14
dex: 8
con: 10
int: 8
wis: 16
cha: 10

Definitely workable but a bit quirky, which is fun. Getting out of the "4 int pit" hurt some but the character is still workable.

ATTEMPT 5 - THE MONK

Roll 1: 5, 4, 4 = 13 = str
Roll 2: 4, 1, 4 = 9 = dex
Roll 3: 2, 3, 4 = 9 = con
Roll 4: 4, 3, 4 = 11 = int
Roll 5: 5, 3, 6 = 14 = wis
Roll 6: 3, 2, 4 = 9 = cha

I'll swap int and dex. Total point value is 17, giving me 8 points to distribute. I'll raise wisdom to 16, dex to 14, and con to 10.

str: 13
dex: 14
con: 10
int: 9
wis: 16
cha: 9

Looks almost like yer standard monk.


SUMMARY
From this limited test sample the results seem very similar to standard point buy, but eliminate the problem with characters choosing the same point spread for the same character classes. In addition, they provide the off chance of creating a very quirky character, like the fighter example, or a very exceptional character through extreme luck (considering you roll straight 3d6 not 4d6 drop lowest) of the dice, which did not chance to happen with my test cases but would no doubt eventually occur on a rather rare basis. All of the characters are quite viable.

I starting to like this system and I think I'm going to use it from now on. Maybe I'll run some more test cases. For anyone else that wants to, there is an online die roller here that helps generate the initial stat rolls quickly - just make sure to modify the settings because the web site defaults to 4d6 drop lowest: http://www.irony.com/igroll.html

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Kenjib,

I like it.

One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize. Is that good?

 

[Crothian]

Okay, I'm going to try out my system using a 25 point baseline and no fudging. I realized that I had to add two clarifications to get the system working:

I'm intrigued by your system and I have only one general comment. It might be best to roll the character up and then choose class. Let's face it, most people would go to their strength. That is the way I've always done it when stats were rolled in a specific order. I don't know how many people havea the exact character in mind that they will play before they even start character generation. For us, we always have a semi balanced party, so no character idea is ever set in stone.

 

[kenjib]

Yowser! I tried rolling a set of stats one more time and with the results I got had to try it out.

ATTEMPT 6 - THE BARBARIAN

Roll 1: 5, 4, 5 = 14 = str
Roll 2: 5, 3, 5 = 13 = dex
Roll 3: 4, 6, 5 = 15 = con
Roll 4: 4, 2, 2 = 8 = wis
Roll 5: 2, 2, 3 = 7 = int
Roll 6: 6, 6, 6 = 18 = cha

I'll swap cha and str. Total point value is 35 - far above the baseline. That means I get 4 points to spend. I'll raise con to 16 and dex to 14.

str: 18
dex: 14
con: 16
wis: 8
int: 7
cha: 14

This guy's a hulking brute of a combat monster and likable, with a great presence, despite being somewhat slow on the pickup and thick in the head. He's your basic cuddly grizzly bear. Here's an example of that "luck of the dice" character in any case, but the stats still aren't min-maxed into the most efficient configuration. Notice how I was forced into keeping a high charisma, which would normally be the #1 dump stat for this guy. This is interesting and opens up some new possibilities for this character.

EDIT: P.S. For those without books handy, here's the point buy scale:

score - point cost
8 (or less) - 0
9 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 6
15 - 8
16 - 10
17 - 13
18 - 16

So, for example, to raise a score from 16 to 18 costs 6 points.

 

[hong]

I prefer point buy.

The downside is it really hurts paladins and monks because both are very stat intensive. A low level monk with point buy is nearly unplayable IMNSHO.

You can still use point buy; just bump up the point total to allow viable characters. In this case, you might also want a floor on the lowest possible stat, to avoid excessive minmaxing from characters who aren't so stat-intensive.

Something like 40 points, minimum score of 10 in each stat should be quite balanced IMO.

 

[kenjib]

Kenjib,

I like it.

One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize. Is that good?

Hmmmm....

*ponder*

That's a very interesting point. It certainly didn't bother me when I was testing it out. I didn't even notice, really. When I got nice rolls I didn't need as much customization. Maybe more tests would be required to see if this is a problem.

I'm intrigued by your system and I have only one general comment. It might be best to roll the character up and then choose class. Let's face it, most people would go to their strength. That is the way I've always done it when stats were rolled in a specific order. I don't know how many people havea the exact character in mind that they will play before they even start character generation. For us, we always have a semi balanced party, so no character idea is ever set in stone.

Another good point. I think it would probably work just fine either way. I think that if someone were to choose the class after the initial rolls then they would probably just get slightly more advantageous results since they could pick the class best suited toward the luck of the dice they get (before modification).

I don't think there would be a problem just deciding on class after step 1 if you haven't determined what you want beforehand. Give it a try!

 

[Desdichado]

Axiomatic Unicorn:
One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize. Is that good?

A compensation package, of sorts?

Crothian:
I'm intrigued by your system and I have only one general comment. It might be best to roll the character up and then choose class. Let's face it, most people would go to their strength. That is the way I've always done it when stats were rolled in a specific order. I don't know how many people havea the exact character in mind that they will play before they even start character generation. For us, we always have a semi balanced party, so no character idea is ever set in stone.

Yes, but in my opinion, playing a concept is better than developing a concept based on a person who is developed first. Sure, the character may be best suited to be a fighter, or whatever, but is the player best suited to it?

hong:
You can still use point buy; just bump up the point total to allow viable characters. In this case, you might also want a floor on the lowest possible stat, to avoid excessive minmaxing from characters who aren't so stat-intensive.

Something like 40 points, minimum score of 10 in each stat should be quite balanced IMO.

That's probably true for most folks. Minimum stats go a long way towards keeping it balanced. I like kenjib's method though, because although rolling has a lot of undesirable results, it's fun! This is a good compromise: you get some randomness, but nothing that's completely out there.