Points of Light and the Forgotten Realms

[Ruin Explorer]

If I recall the alphabet used by the elves in Faerun and the one used by the humans, is there no letter c. (In English, the letter c is mostly redundant as it individually sounds s or k, except when comboned with h for the sound in church.) The CCC is a bit much, and I would love to see it have a rather horrific end. (Maybe Drizzt, some dwarves, elves, and humans can march them to border of the Silver Marches and point them in the direction of Waterdeep -- City of Demons and the Undead. Okay, Ruin Explorer and Eric, is this better for you? )

I think you're right, which means they're actually the KKK or the SSS, which kinda worse. I think it's very unfortunate that this "white-guy" equivalent (Drizzt) is having to "save" the Orcs from them too, instead of something more empowering, like the apparently ruling-class Orcs y'know, terminating them with extreme prejudice...

It's particularly sad that Salvatore chose to handle this so amazingly crudely, because there IS something to be said for a story exploring the tensions created when a group of people once regarded as an enemy become your neighbours and rulers. Hell, that's kind of advanced by D&D standards, so I guess that's why WotC pay hacks like Salvatore, to dumb it down and not scare the horse.

Bitter? Me? What?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

On a more serious note, there is a great Irish myth involving Cuchulainn who fights a great warrior and kills him -- only learning as the young man died that the warrior was his son. If Elminster had to go through something like that amid all the destruction round him, he might be a very different person in a future version of the Realms.

If nothing else, it might encourage the old man to keep his pants buttoned up a little more often in the new edition.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Rather than get into this further, I'll just say that I agree with Ruin Explorer, both at a high conceptual level and with respect to many fine grain details.

Particularly with respect to Khelben. Few things would please me more than defeating the Lich of Overmountain and playing soccer with his skull.

 

[Uzzy]

Could someone has rich and powerful as him get laid? Sure. Is it creepy to write books about it? Oh boy definately. I don't want to read Ed Greenwood's "happy time" material...

Perhaps you could point us in the direction these 'Happy Time Elminster' books? I don't seem to recall sections in the Elminster novels detailing his sexual activities.

Anyway, we get the point. After completely misinterpreting the Realms, you've decided you don't like it. You think the Realms shown in this preview would be much better. Well, as an existing fan of the Realms, I disagree. I don't think alienating a large portion of the fanbase is a good way to bring about a new edition. That fanbase is probably going to be the most useful tool in bringing in new players, and if a large portion of them is still playing in the Realms set in 1375 DR, or even earlier, then that's a problem for WoTC when they push a new edition. Perhaps we can keep the discussion to the 4th Edition Realms, as opposed to misinterpretations of Elminster?

Particularly with respect to Khelben. Few things would please me more than defeating the Lich of Overmountain and playing soccer with his skull.

Spoiler. Both Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff and Halaster Blackcloak died in recent Forgotten Realms novels (Blackstaff) and Adventures (Expedition to Undermountain) So it's unlikely you'll get to kill them again!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Anyway, we get the point. After completely misinterpreting the Realms, you've decided you don't like it. You think the Realms shown in this preview would be much better. Well, as an existing fan of the Realms, I disagree. I don't think alienating a large portion of the fanbase is a good way to bring about a new edition. That fanbase is probably going to be the most useful tool in bringing in new players, and if a large portion of them is still playing in the Realms set in 1375 DR, or even earlier, then that's a problem for WoTC when they push a new edition. Perhaps we can keep the discussion to the 4th Edition Realms, as opposed to misinterpretations of Elminster?

Oh, so having played in the FR since 1989 I'm not an "existing fan of the Realms" and just "misinterpreting" it. Gee thanks for that mister, I'm glad you set that straight! You might want to ask in future

I don't think this will "alienate" the fanbase unless they screw it up monumentally. I'm hardly saying anything new about Elminster, either, but I'll leave off that old beardo for now (misinterpretation indeed! Pfffft!). A hundred-year jump forward will allow for them to do some very good things to the Realms, I would suggest.

Good news on the spoiler, though! Sadly when I first saw "spoiler" I thought you were commenting on Khelben-lich kickball, and that it was a very droll joke!

Incidentally, it's kind of sad that anyone who replies to a poster with "spoiler text" in it with the quote button is forced to see the spoiler! Oh well.

 

[Uzzy]

My misinterpreting comment was aimed at many on this thread, but even if you've played since 1989, your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in the Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?

Infact, read this post over at the WoTC boards, that explains the situation quite perfectly. I'll not quote it, as it's huge.

If Mystra's Chosen are a "problem" for your Forgotten Realms..

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My misinterpreting comment was aimed at many on this thread, but even if you've played since 1989, your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in your Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?

What's FRCS? I stopped running the Realms about three years ago so I may well have forgotten. Is that the 3E FR main book?

They're a problem when the metaplot keeps moving and involves them, and they're irritating and stupid even if you ignore them. That's no misinterpretation, just an honest to god opinion (one others share, apparently, given the above comments, the legendary JDCorley thread on rpg.net and so on). You don't have to dislike them, but if you don't acknowledge that they're an irritant for many, you're in denial.

Just to be clear - they're not a problem to my "day to day" game, but they fact that they exist as an important and once-unchanging (but apparently changed now!) part of the setting is irritating. I think it's really strange to be apparently arguing that the Realms doesn't have too many rules-breaking high-powered NPCs in it...

 

[Imp]

On a more serious note, there is a great Irish myth involving Cuchulainn who fights a great warrior and kills him -- only learning as the young man died that the warrior was his son. If Elminster had to go through something like that amid all the destruction round him, he might be a very different person in a future version of the Realms.

This is where I favor Greek myths – Elminster instead meets his daughter, something different happens, revelation etc. etc., beard be-dewed with eyeballs.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Spoiler. Both Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff and Halaster Blackcloak died in recent Forgotten Realms novels (Blackstaff) and Adventures (Expedition to Undermountain) So it's unlikely you'll get to kill them again!

Apparently you play a different game than I do! I play D&D, where killing people multiple times is not only possible, but practically 'likely.' You're aware of the on-again, dead-again relationship Elminster and Manshoon had going for a while there, aren't you? It's hardly like the PC's are the only ones with access to Raise Dead, True Resurrection, etc.

However, your spoiler exactly makes my point. What if I were running a campaign where NPC-X is the main BBEG (or benefactor, plot element, whatever), and then the WotC guys come along and kills that dude off? The current campaign I'm playing in is set in Waterdeep (mostly), and here comes WotC - whoops! Waterdeep is now just "hip deep", IYKWIM.

your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in the Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?

I read it, thanks. They're still a problem to me. Not just them, but "Them + the Novels + the RSE's", combined, are my problem. I, whether a player or DM, am clearly not in control of where the world is heading or where I can take it. I have less control over the future of the Forgotten Realms than I do over the future of America here in the real world (speaking solely as a citizen who can vote and write to his representatives). In FR, I don't even get that one vote. It's just *BAM*, your campaign and everything you've done for the last two years is gone and buried under the torid prose of R.A. Salvatore, or whoever.

As for the NPC's, Eberron did it better. There are people who are powerful for political reasons, but level-wise they're mostly 5-7th level. That really lets the PC's be the obvious, first-choice heroes of the setting.

But this reboot sounds pretty cool to me. So, maybe I'll buy it, and then just never buy or read any further published materials. That might work, as long as Elminster bites it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But this reboot sounds pretty cool to me. So, maybe I'll buy it, and then just never buy or read any further published materials. That might work, as long as Elminster bites it.

I could agree more (with all the rest of what you said as well).