Poison in literature and in gaming

[Particle_Man]

In fantasy literature, there are many tales of poison that, either slowly or quickly, will kill its victim. The poisoner in Best Served Cold, for example, is very effective at killing people outright (and often within moments) with the slightest drop of poison, rarely needing a weapon at all (and if so it would be a minor one, like a blowgun dart).

In D&D (for example) this is almost impossible to do by itself. You can maybe weaken someone with ability damage (which varies from annoying to very annoying) and *maybe* knock an animal or stupid person unconscious with int poison, but really, the only "killer" poison is the one that does con damage, and that doesn't always kill the victim either (often you need a combination of con damage and good old fashioned hp damage, usually from a weapon).

I can see why games move away from "save or die" poisons (I think the last holdout in 3.x was the green part of the prismatic spells, but that is hard to bottle), but in D&D it is odd because there are "save or die" spells and "death from massive damage" effects. Poison, however, is basically a way of wearing down an opponent, only you use ability score points as the ablative marker instead of hit points.

Is this a general problem in gaming - is "save or die" (or heck, just "die") poison too quick and lethal to be fun in games? Or is it the other way around, and literature has made poison so very deadly for literary reasons?

 

[LordEntrails]

In most cases, IMO, any save or die situation is not fun. You have to have the correct expectations and mind set going into a campaign to accept save or die as enjoyable. I think it's one of the aspects that hindered enjoyment and growth in earlier versions because those expectations and mind set are not how most people wish to play there heroes.

 

[Jhaelen]

Is this a general problem in gaming - is "save or die" (or heck, just "die") poison too quick and lethal to be fun in games? Or is it the other way around, and literature has made poison so very deadly for literary reasons?

I'm not an expert, but I think in the real world there really aren't (m)any toxins that are reliably lethal, can be applied to weapons, and take effect quickly enough to be useful in a combat situation.

Even with a quick-acting real-world toxin, it still takes one to several hours until the victim dies - if it actually dies. In most cases, it's only children, old, or sick people that are actually killed by toxins.
Imho, most toxins are more realistically modeled by the RPG rules covering diseases.

Some quick googling indicates that Poison Dart Frogs are the most poisonous animals currently known. I've seen a quote that the poison can kill a tiger in about 5 minutes.

I recall that the 'Call of Cthulhu' RPG rules cover toxins in a pretty realistic manner. It also deals with the matters of detecting and treating poisoning.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As Jhaelen points out, RW poisons are rarely as effective & quick as they are in literature. Most of those could not be effectively applied to weapons. Of those that would meet those tight criteria, many would not be easily made in a pre-industrial society...without magic, of course.

Historically, poison is a slow death. Those who kill quickly with poisons typically do so with massive overdoses, often introduced orally or intravenously to restrained or otherwise helpless victims.

 

[Dioltach]

Remember that it's also on a par with how deadly other forms of damage are: in real life, most people can't carry on as usual after having been hit with an axe multiple times or having fallen from a tall building.

 

[Morrus]

Isn’t cyanide quick? Or is that just a spy movie trope?


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[Dannyalcatraz]

Isn’t cyanide quick? Or is that just a spy movie trope?

While this wiki article doesn't go into details of dosing & times for 2 of the more dangerous forms- cyanide salts (usually suicide pills) and gasses (Nazi gas chambers)- it does note things in the description of detecting cyanide in a victim that would indicate that death is neither sure nor swift:

Cyanide is quickly metabolized to ATCA (an intermediate) and thiocyanate (SCN) with a half life of 10-30 minutes as a detoxifying mechanism. Within a few hours of single ingestion, no cyanide can be detected, since all of it is metabolized unless death occurs first. (The detection of cyanide long after supposed ingestion is an indication of a false positive in the diagnostics.) Thiocyanate has a long half life of >24hrs, and is typically eliminated through the kidneys. Thiocyanate is ~1/100th the toxicity of the cyanide parent molecule.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

 

[Ovinomancer]

While this wiki article doesn't go into details of dosing & times for 2 of the more dangerous forms- cyanide salts (usually suicide pills) and gasses (Nazi gas chambers)- it does note things in the description of detecting cyanide in a victim that would indicate that death is neither sure nor swift:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

1.5mg/kg is considered a lethal dose according to the wiki you quoted. Since it metabolizes very quickly (your quote shows this), and given its effects (it prevents cells from using oxygen), cyanide kills very, very quickly at lethal doses, and can cause significant damage at lower than lethal doses.

Essentially, the quote you cite doesn't indicate that cyanide isn't swift, rather it does the exact opposite. It shows how fast cyanide is metabolized into the body (so fast that it's entirely gone in a few hours, which is ridiculously fast). This is great news for low dose exposure, as it means recovery is quick, but for lethal or near lethal doses the effect is extremely fast because the body metabolizes it so quickly.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1.5mg/kg is considered a lethal dose according to the wiki you quoted. Since it metabolizes very quickly (your quote shows this), and given its effects (it prevents cells from using oxygen), cyanide kills very, very quickly at lethal doses, and can cause significant damage at lower than lethal doses.

Essentially, the quote you cite doesn't indicate that cyanide isn't swift, rather it does the exact opposite. It shows how fast cyanide is metabolized into the body (so fast that it's entirely gone in a few hours, which is ridiculously fast). This is great news for low dose exposure, as it means recovery is quick, but for lethal or near lethal doses the effect is extremely fast because the body metabolizes it so quickly.

1) "Cyanide" isn't one substance, it is a group name for several. Not all are equally lethal. The article's cited does of 1.5mg/kg does not specify which form. Most likely, that is for cyanide salts, the form used for suicide pills. But elsewhere. The article notes:

Blood levels of cyanide can be measured but take time. Levels of 0.5–1 mg/L are mild, 1–2 mg/L are moderate, 2–3 mg/L are severe, and greater than 3 mg/L generally result in death.

Blood weighs about 1.06kg/liter, and there are 5.5 liters of blood in the average human body. That means the concentration of 3mg/liter being "generally fatal" is a vastly different than the 1.5mg/kg = lethal listed elsewhere.

2) if you check the list of antidotes and possible antidotes, you'll note that the timing and complexity of some treatments- administering 100% oxygen, consumption of vitamin B12 or even (possibly) glucose- would probably not have been discovered and would be utterly meaningless if cyanide killed quickly and reliably.

3) like any poison, means of exposure matters- mere contact may be treatable by washing it off. Injection, inhalation or ingestion means more serious measures must be taken.

 

[jasper]

It depends on the story. I am currently reading Orchestra of Treacheries by JC Kang. It has a three part poison. I have read other works were you dead in one paragraph or it takes multiple doses and plenty of chapters.
Now the save or die mechanic, its neither good nor bad but game dependent. 1E no problem as I could roll a new pc under 4 minutes if non caster and under 7 if a caster.