Poisoned Death Attack - Order of effects ?

[Mentat55]

The damage has to be resolved first, primarily because of damage reduction (or anything else that might block damage). If the attack does not do damage, then the death effect and poison (assuming it is an injury poison) would not come into play. This is RAW, I think.

After that, I think resolving all secondary effects simultaneously is pretty fair.

 

[Jhaelen]

Since the effects are simultaneous, I'd say the target gets to choose the order for any required saving throws.

 

[irdeggman]

Since the effects are simultaneous, I'd say the target gets to choose the order for any required saving throws.

But if the effects are simultaneous then why aren't the saving throws simultaneous?

 

[Solirion]

The damage has to be resolved first, primarily because of damage reduction (or anything else that might block damage). If the attack does not do damage, then the death effect and poison (assuming it is an injury poison) would not come into play. This is RAW, I think. .

That is a good point. So, the weapon damage has to be accounted for first.

As for the two saves, the consensus seems to go towards not letting the poison complement the death attack (either the saves are simultaneuosly or the poison acts last).

Let's assume for a moment one were to apply the poison before the death attack. Does anybody see major balance problems with that ? Both poison and death attack are pretty situational, have mediocre DCs and are pretty much useless against anything with a decent Fort save.

I think allowing the tactic to work would give the Assassin class a needed but not unbalacing bump.

 

[blargney the second]

Let's assume for a moment one were to apply the poison before the death attack. Does anybody see major balance problems with that?

Yes.

 

[irdeggman]

Let's assume for a moment one were to apply the poison before the death attack. Does anybody see major balance problems with that ? Both poison and death attack are pretty situational, have mediocre DCs and are pretty much useless against anything with a decent Fort save.

I for one have always hated save or die spells and effects and seen them as overpowered and something that quickly eliminates the fun of a game since one missed save and everything its game over - so since this option ups the effectiveness of that I don't like it.

I think allowing the tactic to work would give the Assassin class a needed but not unbalacing bump.

I don't think the assassin class needs a bump. Their sneak attack damage goes up by +1d6 every other level and adds to other sources of sneak attack. At 4th level they get the invisibility spell - which give an automatic sneak attack condition for the first attack.

Remember that sneak attack damage applies to all attacks made meeting the conditions - so an assassin using two weapons gets to apply the damage to all attacks when the conditions are met.

Since the class is for only evil characters - it is primarily for NPCs (since the norm is for PCs not to be evil, although it is allowed) - this would be something primarily designed to mess with the PCs. That is what traps and tactics are for.

While not applying the efect damage in series makes it less effective against those with high Fort saves it is still effective against those with poor ones (like wizards) it balances with the spells that are less effective against thosw with high Wil saves and more effective against those with poor ones.

The other "effect" of this type of ruling is that it would work with spells and other effects as well - so be careful on the unforeseen ramifications of such an application of "rules".

 

[frankthedm]

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Let's assume for a moment one were to apply the poison before the death attack. Does anybody see major balance problems with that?

Yes.

Yes.

 

[Jhaelen]

But if the effects are simultaneous then why aren't the saving throws simultaneous?

Well, if I am not mistaken all simultaneous effects in the game are resolved consecutively. Can you give an example of effects that are resolved simultaneously?

 

[irdeggman]

Well, if I am not mistaken all simultaneous effects in the game are resolved consecutively. Can you give an example of effects that are resolved simultaneously?

What do you mean?

If you get hit with two weapons (as in the opponet is using two weapons or even multiple attacks) - the damage is resolved at the same time.

If you do not have sufficient dice to handle it that way - it is a table top game mechanic issue.

But the damage is applied at the same time (technically).

 

[Runestar]

Assassin is a fairly lackluster prc to begin with, namely because its death attack is extremely unwieldy to use (you need to observe your target for 3 rounds, so unless the rogue can reliably access timestop...

Not to mention that sneak attack is not that hard to negate. At higher lvs, just about every PC and his mother should have items/abilities granting fortification, miss chances or uncanny dodge.

They are basically one-shot ponies since they are fairly weak in melee.