Poisoned Death Attack - Order of effects ?

[Jhaelen]

Then why did you ask in the first place?

I am confused.

I guess so. Otherwise you'd remember that you asked me first! I was merely trying to show you why I believe you're on the wrong track.

This is starting to get a bit silly...

The OP had a concrete rule question regarding a simultaneous effect. I pointed out that I think simultaneous effects are always resolved consecutively. This makes it easy to judge similar cases.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I pointed out that I think simultaneous effects are always resolved consecutively.

Consider a character who is the subject of Mordenkainen's Disjunction. He must roll Will Saves for all his miagic items (using the item's bonus or his own, whichever is higher).

Assume his Cloak of Resistance is one of the items disjoined, thus lowering his Will Save bonus.

Let's say he has three magic items.

As I read it, it doesn't matter what order he rolls his saving throws for the items; they are all being disjoined at the same time, and he could roll 3d20, or he could roll 1d20 three times; all he is doing is generating results for the three items, and those results all happen simultaneously.

If we assume that the magic items save sequentially, though, then there's a difference between rolling for the cloak first, and rolling for the cloak last; losing the cloak will reduce his bonus for any subsequent Will Saves.

But I see no reason to assume that the magic items save one-after-the-other. The spell is instantaneous; all the items either save or fail at the same time, and so the cloak's bonus should apply to all three saves.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

I guess so. Otherwise you'd remember that you asked me first! I was merely trying to show you why I believe you're on the wrong track.

This is starting to get a bit silly...

The OP had a concrete rule question regarding a simultaneous effect. I pointed out that I think simultaneous effects are always resolved consecutively. This makes it easy to judge similar cases.

The order of “our” exchanges:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4445380&postcount=13

I was trying to ask when does “simultaneous” not mean at the same time?



http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4446526&postcount=18

Where you asked for examples of simultaneous effects not happening sequentially.


http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4446822&postcount=19

Where I brought up the erroneous example of a full attack

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4448414&postcount=27

Where you asked for more examples.


http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4448490&postcount=28

Where I instead asked for examples (other than the full attack where it is specifically spelled out they are not simultaneous).

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4449005&postcount=29

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4449417&postcount=30

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4449459&postcount=31

Where “we” started to get off track.


There is a difference between ongoing simultaneous effects and resolving effects that are simultaneously going into effect.

I have not found another example of how simultaneous effects are specified to be resolved in an order.

There are plenty for saying which effect is used (stacking, simultaneous "command", etc) but none where the effects are not mutually exclusive of each other.

The OP did not ask about simultaneous effects, he asked about an order of resolution - assuming that they were not simultaneous. We (as in responders) brought up the "simultaneous" resolution.

 

[Jhaelen]

Actually, after thinking about it I've remembered an example where the rules are explicitly applied simultaneously and not consecutively: When applying both the Maximize Spell and the Empower Spell feats to a spell, they applied separately to the base damage.

But I see no reason to assume that the magic items save one-after-the-other. The spell is instantaneous; all the items either save or fail at the same time, and so the cloak's bonus should apply to all three saves.

That makes sense to me. I agree that the cloak's bonus should apply to all saves since the spell doesn't dictate any order.

I disagree though, that the fact that the spell is 'instantaneous' automatically implies that all of it's associated effects occur simultaneously. There are several instantaneous spells that can have multiple effects that are applied or saved against in a certain order as described by the spell.

Anyway, looks like my assumption was wrong. My apologies.


Edit: I just noted that the DDM rules describe exactly what I thought was the general rule in D&D, as well:

SIMULTANEOUS EFFECTS: If several effects happen at the same time, resolve them one after the other. Usually it doesn’t matter what order these effects happen in. If it does matter, use these rules. player’s choice: If several effects apply to one player’s creature or creatures, that player determines the order and resolves effects one creature at a time. player whose creature is taking a turn: If the effects apply to creatures controlled by more than one player, the player whose creature is taking a turn goes first. He or she handles all the effects on his or her creatures, one creature at a time. Next, the player to the left handles effects on his or her creatures, and so on.

- emphasis mine.