Poisons

[TanisFrey]

I just got my pathfinder rulebook. After flipping through it I saw several changes.

With regard to poisons, I see changes that make them more annoying than making lesser types of poisons more problematic. Some poisons you need to make more checks against than you did in 3.x ed. In 3.x ed you would only need to make 2 checks.

That's the major change in poisons I saw in pathfinder. Anyone ever see a more satisfying system for poisons??



The system I saw and liked the most was from Gamma World 4th edition. The system worked as follows:
1) Every character has a Health Ability equal to 10 + Con bonus + Race bonus + any points placed in this stat
2) Every poison/drug/toxin/radiation had intensity and an 8-stage of effect chart.
3) On successful attack a Hazard attack (= d20 + intensity + modifiers) was made.
4) Stage of effect = hazard attack - health. The character was poisoned if this score was positive and each stage was 5 points long.
5) The poisoned character move down one level of the poison chart per round suffering the effects until they at the stage of effect reached.

The base role book gave 3 basic poison charts and encourage you to invent more as the GM saw fit.

Example chart: Destructive Poison
Stage Roll Effect
---- =< 0 None
I 1-5 1d6 HP loss
II 6-10 1d6 HP loss
III 11-15 2d6 HP loss
IV 16-20 2d6 HP loss
V 21-25 3d6 HP loss
VI 26-30 3d6 HP loss & incapacitated
VII 31-35 3d6 HP loss & unconscious
VIII 36 + Death

This was copied out of the book and would need to be modified for Pathfinder where characters start with far fewer hit points then Gamma world 4ed.

I saw this system as allowing even minor poisons to affect high level characters. In real life even a minor poison would slow and slightly sicken you. As apposed to any edition of D&D, where you stop worrying about the minor poisons once you saving through was good enough.

This is the system I saw and liked. Anyone see any other that they liked???

 

[Skytheen]

I was asked by my players- if you use poisons, does that make you evil?

 

[BlubSeabass]

I actually liked the changes in poison. Most of the time there is poison in the game, it's a secondary offensive ability (except for low levels). Also, I think the poison grows with the HD of the monster. There are few more roles involved, but this always makes me remember the time the druid of a party I run magically managed to poison a Hydra that should be the epic boss (party was lvl 5), into halving his hitpoints, in the first round. Now this is less likely to happen. The weaker poisons got weaker, but the stronger poisons got stronger.

Your poison method seems neat, but since our battles are already chaotic and out of pace, I try to minimize the rules I have to use, and more importantly, the party has to use

 

[TanisFrey]

I actually liked the changes in poison. Most of the time there is poison in the game, it's a secondary offensive ability (except for low levels). Also, I think the poison grows with the HD of the monster.

Most society's restrict the sale/use of poisons. Thus you tend to only find in the backrooms the cheaper poisons (ie. low DC) routinely. So if a player wants poison for their character to use they will stop at some point as it becomes ineffective (for the cost/risk) at some higher level.

As I said the biggest change makes you make more saves for some poisons. This does increases the effectiveness of the low DC that make you save more than twice by some, but not much.

Monster poison do increase by HD but this does not keep pace with saving throws (by 1/2 HD). This was true in 1st and 2nd edition also, but they both had methods to moderate this. 1st edition, over 70-90% of poisons killed you outright. 2ed edition, the poisons could have a lesser effect on the character even with a good save.

The system I showed you is from Gamma World 4ed. You get 90% of your character HP, abilities, and power at 1st level. You gained (Constitution score)d6 plus 1 hp per level gained. Unless you were the fighter-like class where you got 1d6 hp per level. Very different power level that a D&D any edition's power level.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I wouldn't say poisons are inherently evil, but I DO think they're chaotic or at least non-lawful.

The biggest problem with PF poisons is how mind numbingly stupid they are to craft. When it's easy to make the giant awesome magic weapon then it is the one coat of poison for one battle, there's an issue.

 

[ruemere]

Use of poisons is just like a use of weapons. Ask yourself if your local community laws allow characters to carry unsheathed or untethered weapons. And apply similar logic to poisons (note that "similar" does not equal "same").
Usually, in most cultures, poisons were prohibited, and you needed some special permission to manufacture them.

Also, quite a lot of poisons are non-lethal. It's quite possible that these are considered to be a separate sort of substance, and as such they are neither illegal nor frowned upon.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[TanisFrey]

Use of poisons is just like a use of weapons. Ask yourself if your local community laws allow characters to carry unsheathed or untethered weapons. And apply similar logic to poisons (note that "similar" does not equal "same").
Usually, in most cultures, poisons were prohibited, and you needed some special permission to manufacture them.

Also, quite a lot of poisons are non-lethal. It's quite possible that these are considered to be a separate sort of substance, and as such they are neither illegal nor frowned upon.

Regards,
Ruemere

Yes, true. But I did refer to the fact that a chaotic character using a poison is unlikely to care about law. The use of streetwise will find where the illegal items are sold. ie Ask the shady people for shady things. Yes, I agree, the use of poison is not an inherently evil act. There are tribe in the amazon whom hunt monkeys with poisoned blowguns or arrows.

Even the trying to get poison that only slow then paralyze the victim suffers from a DC. Most of this type of 'non-lethal poisons' have low DC. The Drow poison being the toughest with a DC 13.

The gamma world system had death at the 8th level of effect for a paralytic poison, meaning the poison stopped the heart. You still had 8 rounds to try to treat your friend this badly poisoned. Ideal for use of a slow poison before death and get them to a powerful NPC cleric.

One could also make charts for character whom excessive drink or for diseases.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Playing in a Pathfinder campaign now and I can say that the new rules on poison do two things.

1. Require the DM to adjust encounters in pre-Pathfinder written modules to account for how powerful poison has become.

2. Require the party cleric to memorize stupid quantities of Lesser Restoration and/or the party to carry around wands of it and potions.

Of course this problem only affects the party. Who cares if a monster takes ability damage. Monster only exists to die at the parties hand. In our last session my character took 8 points of Con damage and 1 point of Con ability drain (only cured through a full restoration spell).

The same goes for the crit cards. The crit cards, or at least the ones that came up in our last session have some sadistic love affair with ability damage which becomes a pain in the butt. We have had strength damage, con damage, imparement to speaking, and finally in the same session where I lost 9 con points I also lost 3 fingers to a crit that will be permanently gone from my character until he has the spare money to waste on a Regeneration Spell.

I am starting to wonder when I signed up to play Hackmaster.

 

[TanisFrey]

Playing in a Pathfinder campaign now and I can say that the new rules on poison do two things.

1. Require the DM to adjust encounters in pre-Pathfinder written modules to account for how powerful poison has become.

2. Require the party cleric to memorize stupid quantities of Lesser Restoration and/or the party to carry around wands of it and potions.

Of course this problem only affects the party. Who cares if a monster takes ability damage. Monster only exists to die at the parties hand. In our last session my character took 8 points of Con damage and 1 point of Con ability drain (only cured through a full restoration spell).

The same goes for the crit cards. The crit cards, or at least the ones that came up in our last session have some sadistic love affair with ability damage which becomes a pain in the butt. We have had strength damage, con damage, imparement to speaking, and finally in the same session where I lost 9 con points I also lost 3 fingers to a crit that will be permanently gone from my character until he has the spare money to waste on a Regeneration Spell.

I am starting to wonder when I signed up to play Hackmaster.

I read some of those critical mastery feats and went, whaoo that's nasty.

And 'cause you said that poison were more deadly, I read the section closely. Yes, multiple attacks from the same poison do make it worse but, half of the poisons only one save to be cured. Unless there are additional poisons in the PF Bestiary there are only a few really nasty poisons. I have not gotten that book yet.

 

[Abciximab]

Also, though you make more saves the damage is pretty much the same (or less if your lucky enough to save) in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5.

Black lotus was 3d6 Con/3d6 Con. So you take 6d6 if you fail 2 saves.

Pathfinder is now 1/round for d6 con for 6 rounds 2 saves cure. The total damage is the same (6d6), but if your lucky (or perhaps recieve a cure or at least a buff to help your saves) you could save out of it and take less damage. Or you could fail all 6 and take the same amount of damage.